Unveiling the Connection: Chronic Fatigue, Sleep Disorders, and Airway Health Insight with Greg McLean (Part 2)

Transcript

WEBVTT

00:00:00.100 --> 00:00:03.008
Hey everyone, welcome to Exploring Health Macro to Micro.

00:00:03.008 --> 00:00:04.432
I'm your host, parker Condon.

00:00:04.432 --> 00:00:07.392
This is part two of the episode with Greg McLean.

00:00:07.392 --> 00:00:16.007
This picks up right in the middle of the conversation, so if you haven't already, please go back and listen to part one, which includes the full introduction and background for Greg.

00:00:16.007 --> 00:00:20.542
So, without further ado, please enjoy part two of my conversation with Greg McLean.

00:00:26.111 --> 00:00:27.371
So can you describe TMJ?

00:00:27.371 --> 00:00:32.244
Yeah, so, like the TM joints, basically temporal mandibular joints.

00:00:32.244 --> 00:00:33.948
We basically have them on each side.

00:00:33.948 --> 00:00:52.384
Basically it's going to be the joint responsible for basically our mandible kind of moving, chewing, doing life, but oftentimes basically our teeth are going to dictate what happens to things.

00:00:52.384 --> 00:00:57.281
So it's like if we developed, we can't breathe through our nose, our tongue comes down.

00:00:58.043 --> 00:01:11.500
This is where they found out in the late 70s, early 80s, like Harvold did all these studies with, like they plugged all these chimpanzees and recessed monkeys noses with silicone to see what happened when people stopped nasal breathing.

00:01:11.500 --> 00:01:15.950
And basically what we saw was like every different kind of malocclusion.

00:01:15.950 --> 00:01:18.121
Basically, the body is smart.

00:01:18.121 --> 00:01:26.801
The minute I can't move air to nasal breathe, my tongue's coming down to act as a kickstand to open my mouth because I need to breathe.

00:01:26.801 --> 00:01:38.968
That's ultimate hierarchy in life and the compensation for each monkey was all over the board relative to just environment, development, all that stuff.

00:01:39.129 --> 00:01:50.814
And so, as a result, when we can't nasal breathe and we're mouth breathing, it's like our occlusion is going to get thrown off, because it's like my upper and lower jaw are basically like two halves of a basketball.

00:01:50.814 --> 00:01:53.989
I basically want them to stack nicely over each other.

00:01:53.989 --> 00:02:04.375
And the minute I can't hold that posture because the forces inside aren't balanced to keep the outside forces, then it's kind of like everything gets thrown off.

00:02:04.375 --> 00:02:11.181
It's like the scoliosis of your freaking mouth and then it's just kind of like your joints that want to be balanced.

00:02:11.181 --> 00:02:18.360
They can only stay neutral and balanced the minute I literally kind of have the two halves over each other.

00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:20.764
These joints can't be balanced anymore.

00:02:20.764 --> 00:02:26.561
And when they get thrown off, then it's kind of like my occlusion, the way I bite.

00:02:26.561 --> 00:02:29.550
Everything is like this skewed, torqued version.

00:02:29.550 --> 00:02:42.110
And then oftentimes, as we're developing, our teeth continue down this path and then it's like we can't ever get our joints back to a balanced place because the teeth don't fit in such a way that we can do that.

00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:42.980
All right.

00:02:42.980 --> 00:02:47.061
So can you describe how that's going to relate to posture?

00:02:47.061 --> 00:03:01.004
Cause you know, my kid was always hammering this Like you can't just change somebody's head position and say they're in a better posture, um, but there's a lot of like really bad posture advice out there which is like oh, sit up straight, shoulders back and down, uh, can you speak to how?

00:03:01.004 --> 00:03:05.307
If you can't breathe, that's bad advice, can?

00:03:05.328 --> 00:03:06.895
you speak to how if you can't breathe, that's bad advice.

00:03:06.895 --> 00:03:07.580
What is?

00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:14.504
bad advice, Saying like, oh, if you have a forward head position that's bad posture, so just pull your head back.

00:03:14.504 --> 00:03:15.626
Now you're in good posture.

00:03:15.626 --> 00:03:29.695
But I think kind of describing what you were just going through, Whereas if you yeah, you can sit in what visually looks like good posture, but the second you stop paying attention and in this position you can't nasal breathe.

00:03:29.695 --> 00:03:36.823
You're going to shoot back forward and the jaw is going to drop down so you can open up your gullet so you can breathe again.

00:03:36.823 --> 00:03:40.569
So I think a lot of the posture advice is misinformed.

00:03:40.669 --> 00:03:52.117
But if you want to expand on any of that, feel free to yeah, like I think like the first part is like if we can't support the, basically the palate, because the tongue doesn't fit, our head's going to come forward and we're going to extend.

00:03:52.258 --> 00:03:57.527
So the last thing I want to do is shoot my head back because I'm essentially going to shut down my airway.

00:03:58.149 --> 00:03:59.712
That's like just yeah, straight up.

00:03:59.772 --> 00:04:26.680
So it's like I think people don't understand that, like the minute, like this isn't balanced and my head comes forward, it's like it's got a top down effect, kind of like a puppet, where it's like the minute this gets off, it's like a secondary force to gravity and then oftentimes, when you've lived into that long enough, like those patterns bias everything in the body and then it's just like to get that back online is some serious work.

00:04:27.642 --> 00:04:35.927
So like, therefore, it's like even best case scenario for a lot of these, especially like I think up like ideals.

00:04:35.927 --> 00:04:54.641
Like 20 to 45 year old women tend to be like 80 to 90 percent of people with tmj issues, neck problems, and part of it is that like they can't support the head properly and then we've got like basically, like this ribs and pelvis that are flared out because the head doesn't sit over the midline.

00:04:54.641 --> 00:05:12.940
So the best case for some of these people, at least prior to getting interventions done, is like at least training from the bottom up to kind of get things in the most mechanical and advantageous posture as possible, to at least help support as much as possible.

00:05:14.043 --> 00:05:15.348
Do you have an example of what that looks like?

00:05:15.348 --> 00:05:16.170
Training from the bottom up?

00:05:17.901 --> 00:05:22.077
So it'd be even like a, like a 90, 90 where, like someone lays on their back right.

00:05:22.077 --> 00:05:26.211
So especially for someone that can't support the weight of their head, we want to use the floor because it's going to help.

00:05:26.211 --> 00:05:37.788
Basically I can push into the floor Like I'd lay on my back, my feet would be up on a wall and maybe I'd put like a dodgeball between my knees, my knees at 90 degrees, and then this is oftentimes where we can.

00:05:37.788 --> 00:06:01.093
We basically have now grounded the feet, so I basically have a hard surface in which for them to find stability.

00:06:01.093 --> 00:06:29.213
And now it's like teaching them how to basically feel their pelvis where it is in space, and them to stack the ribs and pelvis so that they can kind of get their body basically at least when they're on the floor, start to find access to their diaphragm and their pelvis and ribs stacking, and then something like that they could use as a foundational, little by little be able to get off the floor and then get out of neck pain at least while they're trying to get some good help.

00:06:30.180 --> 00:06:39.514
So people who are going to have that sort of like a palate or mouth presentation, are they going to be able to have trouble producing intra-abdominal pressure?

00:06:46.699 --> 00:07:19.233
yeah, and it's oftentimes like the forward head like sets the stage for the domino effect, basically like all the way down that like posturally everything gets out of line and then it's almost like this secondary force to gravity and then it's just like it's almost like the muscles have lived in such a bad posture for long enough that it's hard to actually get them back to this basically position where the ribs, pelvis kind of work as a team and then they actually have access, because if I can't basically find the pelvis underneath me, I'm not going to have good access to my diaphragm.

00:07:19.233 --> 00:07:27.951
And this is where just kind of teaching someone like you know the ribs and the pelvis is basically like a corset effect, like back in the 1800s western movie.

00:07:27.951 --> 00:07:40.288
It's like it's basically like this internal sports bra that basically holds ribs and pelvis together so that I can kind of get the piston effect of my basically ribs right.

00:07:40.327 --> 00:07:47.810
So if people listening, um, you have your thoracic diaphragm that's usually what people think about when you're talking about breathing and then you also have your pelvic floor.

00:07:47.810 --> 00:07:55.423
Those two should be working in concert when you're breathing, so when you're inhaling, both of them should be kind of descending.

00:07:55.423 --> 00:08:05.920
So your thoracic diaphragm sort of pushes stuff down and your pelvic floor also needs to descend, because as you push the thoracic diaphragm down, you have stuff here and that needs to go somewhere.

00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:08.428
So you need to open up that space for it to go down.

00:08:08.428 --> 00:08:13.391
But kind of what you're describing is a pelvis that's going to be sort of tilted forward.

00:08:13.391 --> 00:08:17.690
So the diaphragm may or may not be moving as well as it should be.

00:08:17.690 --> 00:08:19.656
Yeah, okay.

00:08:20.016 --> 00:08:22.101
Yeah, we just basically lost our good anchorage point.

00:08:22.963 --> 00:08:26.346
Yep, yeah, so again.

00:08:26.346 --> 00:08:35.756
Uh, for anyone who's listening about, like, we're just talking about mouth stuff, but a lot of it starts here and you get a cascading effect going down the system as well.

00:08:35.756 --> 00:08:47.793
And the question earlier to kind of bring that down to a more grounded level, when I said are people with this presentation going and have trouble producing intra-abdominal pressure?

00:08:47.793 --> 00:08:59.948
Um, you're going to have trouble producing that pressure when the diaphragms aren't working together, basically when the rib cage isn't properly stacked over the pelvis and then again the head isn't properly stacked over the rib cage as well.

00:08:59.948 --> 00:09:14.268
So there's sort of this, uh, this, these tiered effects where things work really well when they're all aligned, um, and not so well when they're not Exactly.

00:09:14.268 --> 00:09:15.568
Um, trying to think where to take this now.

00:09:15.568 --> 00:09:20.154
Did you have any other interventions besides the ones?

00:09:20.294 --> 00:10:01.392
I guess, uh, yeah, like I think the one that's really awesome is, uh, really awesome is there's a procedure called the nasal valve but the basically repair and it's called the Viver and they basically take like a resonance wand that like heats up and basically like it's non-surgical, probably took like it probably took longer to numb the nose than for the actual treatment and they basically go in and hold spots inside your nose, almost like they're kind of banging out like dents in a car, and then basically what it does is it's got like a holding effect for like five to seven years, but it's basically remolding a nasal valve that's lost.

00:10:01.392 --> 00:10:04.409
It's like imagine someone crushed your hose in your backyard.

00:10:04.409 --> 00:10:05.780
Valve that's lost.

00:10:05.780 --> 00:10:07.024
It's like imagine someone crushed your hose in your backyard.

00:10:07.024 --> 00:10:10.113
It's like someone basically went and banged it out to kind of give it back its integrity.

00:10:10.113 --> 00:10:22.581
Because like that's going to be the number one factor Even if you fix someone's palate, if you haven't basically reopened the nasal valve, people can't move pressure to switch to nasal breathing.

00:10:28.565 --> 00:10:28.764
Any others.

00:10:28.784 --> 00:10:29.346
That's it for now.

00:10:29.626 --> 00:10:30.668
Okay, so we're an hour in.

00:10:30.668 --> 00:10:40.928
That's, that's all you, that's all you've done at this point, okay, um, so which one of these had the biggest effect for your sleep?

00:10:40.928 --> 00:10:44.085
Cause I do want to kind of start diving into sleep and some of the sleep related um, symptoms and disorders.

00:10:44.085 --> 00:10:50.350
But like, at which stage or what do you think it was cumulative, or was there one where I was like, oh, this had a big effect?

00:10:52.523 --> 00:10:53.344
you know what like it's?

00:10:53.344 --> 00:11:15.063
Uh, I think the the palate expansion was huge from like just giving me literally the sarpy from, but then it was kind of like one of those things where this is where I actually learned that that there's fatigue outside of the whole breathing, sleep apnea.

00:11:15.063 --> 00:11:22.202
This is like relative to a nervous system that's got like joints in an occlusion that's not balanced and not happy.

00:11:22.202 --> 00:11:33.293
So when I I got into this, I thought like yes, like I have the job of a five-year-old, like I can't breathe, I can't sleep well.

00:11:33.293 --> 00:11:39.160
And then it's like I didn't understand until I had gone through all that stuff that like now I can breathe, amazing.

00:11:39.160 --> 00:11:43.565
But like that was a component of my fatigue.

00:11:43.565 --> 00:11:57.336
But from my brain fog and fatigue perspective, which has been my biggest two symptoms for the last five years, like every day debilitating that like this last treatment is what really started to change that.

00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:04.673
Okay, can you describe the mechanisms between that and maybe just describe, like, how the different fatigues feel?

00:12:04.692 --> 00:12:13.260
Yeah, yeah, I guess it's like even my doctor now is like how would you say you feel?

00:12:13.260 --> 00:12:29.613
And I'm like I haven't woken up feeling good in so many years, ever, ever, not one day that I just always felt like I had been drinking for a week straight and then just seriously hung over every day.

00:12:29.613 --> 00:12:36.625
And then it's like some days were really, really bad, like I can't keep my car in the lines when I drive to work to.

00:12:36.625 --> 00:12:40.438
I think I'm driving the wrong way in a freaking parking lot.

00:12:40.438 --> 00:13:00.452
And then it's just like this last few weeks it's like I literally I dream every night and then it's like to oh wow, like I wake up and like I just feel like, uh huh, I don't feel like death okay, so yeah, that's a.

00:13:00.513 --> 00:13:01.274
That's a good description.

00:13:01.274 --> 00:13:09.188
Um, all right, so the, the palate expansion that that helped with, probably the sleep.

00:13:09.188 --> 00:13:18.330
So can you describe sort of the, what I guess you're describing as like nervous system fatigue, and where and where you, where you think that's coming from?

00:13:20.176 --> 00:13:35.770
So this is where I like I've learned, just like all the research between like Ron that started, pri, like understanding, like freedom of the mandible and then basically like there's this whole other science to long-term nervous system health, and it comes through occlusion.

00:13:35.770 --> 00:14:01.842
I think oftentimes it's like our teeth are the very essence of, like the circuit which runs our brain and like the minute our occlusion is off and our joints are imbalanced or we grind down our teeth to where the height is off, it's like we have all these sensors in our jaw and just all of our proprioception comes from basically our TMJ joints, our occlusion and our cervical vertebrae.

00:14:01.842 --> 00:14:11.844
And if those three are not balanced, it's like all the intel we're taking in all day long tends to be off and then it's just like we have to compensate.

00:14:11.844 --> 00:14:15.182
So it's like we don't know where we.

00:14:15.182 --> 00:14:16.865
They've done tons of studies on rats.

00:14:16.865 --> 00:14:26.823
It's like they remove molars and this and that it's like they compare it to basically elderly people that they've lost their spatial awareness, they've lost cognitive ability.

00:14:27.605 --> 00:14:31.876
And you take kids with Tourette's, you take all this different stuff.

00:14:31.876 --> 00:14:42.538
It's like the minute you add vertical height to some of these kids who's basically teeth aren't the right height, with the right occlusion and like ticks go away, bedwetting goes away, like all this stuff.

00:14:42.538 --> 00:15:03.765
You're like this is like insane, and I think that's like the biggest thing is like there's this whole long-term health that ties in to when our vertical height of our teeth are like the right height, like from basically a nervous system perspective, like even like the acetylcholine in our like synaps's and all this stuff.

00:15:03.765 --> 00:15:09.669
It's like the very essence of these studies where they take the molars out of these teeth, different stuff along those lines.

00:15:09.669 --> 00:15:20.464
You're like dude, this is like and this is where, like I started learning from this.

00:15:20.725 --> 00:15:25.503
Uh, dr dwight jennings he did mike k had a wizard brother.

00:15:25.503 --> 00:15:32.868
It'd be like this dr dwight jennings out of oakland dude, he reminds me of him by dude, dude, this is a smart dude.

00:15:32.868 --> 00:15:48.427
And the biggest thing I've never heard another human talk about this is he basically says that like we have this neural modulator it's called substance P and like the minute our bite and our occlusion, our TMJ is off, like the trigeminal nerve gets pissed off.

00:15:48.427 --> 00:15:58.548
Then he basically said we have this influx from these issues of substance p and he literally talks about like every known disease.

00:15:58.727 --> 00:16:04.013
He's like do this just floods the system and he's basically like even from like a lyme disease.

00:16:04.013 --> 00:16:42.283
He basically says it like basically uncouples the cells, depolarizes them, and like the very essence of this stuff, but like I don't think any of that would hit home until most people don't understand that, like most people's jaws are underdeveloped, which means like this mechanism is the thing for everyone, but like people might hear this and not understand, but then it's just like, okay, that makes sense, because like everyone doesn't know that, like they have what he's talking about, which is why this mechanism is driving, and I'm like I'll definitely dwight jennings.

00:16:42.342 --> 00:16:49.558
I'll definitely look him up yeah, he has a two-part with uh dave asprey, so he does like for bulletproof it pretty interesting.

00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:51.801
Cool.

00:16:51.801 --> 00:16:59.067
So when you're talking about sort of the sensory function of teeth or what it can be, the circuitry, do you think in boxing?

00:16:59.067 --> 00:17:03.831
When some guys are described as having a glass jaw, do you think their circuitry is just more delicate than other people?

00:17:05.855 --> 00:17:08.980
So he, literally Dr Dwight Jennings, talks about this in a podcast.

00:17:09.020 --> 00:17:14.150
So basically, muhammad Ali, right, he said he broke his jaw and no one would touch it because it was Muhammad Ali.

00:17:14.915 --> 00:17:18.022
And then he just talks about like, but like, this is where I think.

00:17:18.865 --> 00:17:46.846
And he just talks about this, so like, if you're a mouth breather, you're already predisposed to stuff getting worse because you know, if you're, basically if your tongue fits on your palate and you get hit, from a concussion standpoint at least you're probably had the stabilizing effect, versus a mouth breather gets hit, the lower upper jaw are basically going to super torsion because, like they're not coupled with the, basically the chid strap we call our tongue.

00:17:46.846 --> 00:18:28.526
And then, like, you start to take like this and I'm like I think just after the fact you've got that torsion effect from basically the palate not being sealed and now you have whatever neutral used to be is like slightly off, and now it's like everything we're looking for is wrong in the beginning, and then it's like our nervous system goes looking for neutral and it's like, but this is where I like really think for anyone that's had a bad concussion, and then they or even not even that bad and then they start to have some weird neurological or symptoms show up a few years later, like this is the very essence of like.

00:18:28.546 --> 00:18:42.546
I would tell people to start there because you feel like it would just be like that low level constant, like you can't ever fully relax because the the circuits aren't properly aligned yeah, I mean, all the best stuff I say is like it.

00:18:42.566 --> 00:18:44.155
just they use the word covert.

00:18:44.155 --> 00:18:57.207
It's like it's, it's below our conscious understanding, like we don't know, yeah, and then it just builds, and builds, and builds until it shows up, and then it's often so far away from the incident that we can't tie the two together.

00:18:57.207 --> 00:19:02.019
Regular medicine isn't looking for this, so who's going to catch it?

00:19:03.201 --> 00:19:04.826
Yep, that'll make sense.

00:19:04.826 --> 00:19:08.743
Yeah, it's one of the many perfect storms where things can get missed.

00:19:09.786 --> 00:19:10.606
Yeah, all right, so can you talk more?

00:19:10.565 --> 00:19:11.808
about some of the many perfect storms where things can get missed.

00:19:11.808 --> 00:19:13.580
Yeah, all right, so can you talk more about sleep?

00:19:13.580 --> 00:19:18.496
Some of the sleep issues um, is snoring a red flag that people should be looking out for?

00:19:18.496 --> 00:19:21.662
Um, I guess let's just start there and then I want to go into osa.

00:19:21.962 --> 00:19:24.848
Yeah, like I think so.

00:19:24.848 --> 00:19:33.778
It's like you snoring can be indicative of sleep apnea, but like it doesn't mean because you snore that you have sleep apnea, if that makes sense.

00:19:33.778 --> 00:19:39.978
So it's like for kids you don't want kids that snore and it's kind of like one of those things.

00:19:39.978 --> 00:19:45.068
Ideal situation is that we nasal breathe all the time.

00:19:45.615 --> 00:20:07.578
That tells us that like we've got sufficient, basically, pipes in our nose to do the job to ensure we're not being robbed of quality when it comes to our sleep okay, and then so on the obstructive sleep apnea side, can you describe the difference between that and upper airway resistance syndrome, which I had to look up when you'd email this to me?

00:20:07.578 --> 00:20:08.500
Um?

00:20:08.500 --> 00:20:11.406
Yeah just because it's like the research I did.

00:20:11.446 --> 00:20:35.767
It seems like, uh, uars is just like a catch-all thing for what is outside of obstructive sleep apnea, but I'd love if you could just describe a little bit more about the nuance between those two yeah, I think like one of the things I've seen is like with osa, right, like I always say like, uh, think of like the, the, your fat uncle that fell asleep watching a football game.

00:20:35.767 --> 00:20:38.978
He's got the beer gut, 50 pounds overweight.

00:20:38.978 --> 00:20:40.862
He's snoring middle of the day.

00:20:40.862 --> 00:20:48.159
So oftentimes like you've got someone that basically they've got more of a robust system.

00:20:48.159 --> 00:20:59.491
So think like a skinny marathon runner versus like the farm boy from Nebraska that's thrown bales of hay that like literally, he's just got massive forearms.

00:20:59.976 --> 00:21:13.689
So if you think of like two archetypes, the OSA tends to be someone with bigger pipes and, as a result, they either partially or stop breathing from an apnea or hypopnea standpoint.

00:21:13.689 --> 00:21:19.189
And what tends to happen with OSA is it tends to be more of your metabolic stuff.

00:21:19.189 --> 00:21:25.288
So you think like type 2 diabetes, you think basically anyone with heart issues.

00:21:25.288 --> 00:21:39.616
I mean I know a few guys personally actually, that have had heart attacks from sleep apnea and then they ended up getting a c-pat, but it's oftentimes, you know, kind of that it's more of like a metabolic it's going to affect.

00:21:40.038 --> 00:22:09.017
But like then I think, from uars, basically it tends to be like I think my doc called it like skinny, modern day sleep apnea young, fit, male, female, but like and this is where I think, like with these, it's like you're not actually apnea, hypopnea, it's more like labor breathing and then, as a result, you look at like UARS and it like if I was going to bucket people.

00:22:09.017 --> 00:22:28.964
It's like all your somatic symptoms like Lyme disease, ibs, chronic fatigue that you're just like fibromyalgia but you start to take like autism, adhd, like all that stuff, and it's like more of like a neurological as it relates to the airway, and I think oftentimes it's more of a sensitized airway.

00:22:28.964 --> 00:22:44.704
That's neurological, in effect, versus like the osa, which tends to just be like uh, snoring or they stop breathing, they like wake themselves up there.

00:22:44.704 --> 00:22:45.887
A lot like the two different kids yeah, I have an uncle.

00:22:45.907 --> 00:22:49.618
I always think of yeah, so are.

00:22:49.618 --> 00:22:54.577
So if people fall into either of those two camps, are there different like paths that you would send people down?

00:22:56.642 --> 00:22:56.843
yeah.

00:22:56.843 --> 00:23:08.282
So I guess it's like this right, the gold standard is like a c-pap which I think is trash straight up like I mean literally like outside of well, outside of well.

00:23:08.282 --> 00:23:09.263
I guess I'll start here.

00:23:09.263 --> 00:23:17.551
I think a lot of modern medicine doesn't even know that expansion for adults is a thing.

00:23:17.551 --> 00:23:25.579
So I literally think WatchPat 1 is probably the best at home for testing.

00:23:26.701 --> 00:23:40.252
And I remember there was a rep here and I asked her is there anyone that sells your device in Arizona that would even offer the option of someone getting palate expansion if they're diagnosed as an adult?

00:23:40.252 --> 00:23:41.921
She's like I don't have anyone.

00:23:41.921 --> 00:23:48.268
So then I ended up talking to a doctor and he has five sleep clinics.

00:23:48.268 --> 00:23:54.398
He's in his 40s here, and I was like, yeah, like do you refer any people to do palate expansion?

00:23:54.398 --> 00:23:55.779
He's like I'll do some research.

00:23:55.779 --> 00:23:57.300
He's like I found a place in Vegas.

00:23:57.320 --> 00:24:23.127
I'm like like I guess the hardest thing is the scope of practice means that doctors can only sell what is in their wheelhouse, and I guess the hardest thing is doing the right thing at the cost of taking money out of your own pocket as a doctor.

00:24:23.127 --> 00:24:29.688
And so I think the issue becomes like if someone's going to always go the ethical route.

00:24:29.688 --> 00:24:33.319
It's like that's not even enough because a lot of people don't understand.

00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:40.380
But I think for many people, like expansion is a really good option.

00:24:40.380 --> 00:24:44.208
And then for those that don't want to do this right, like there's the.

00:24:45.698 --> 00:24:53.961
You basically either have a mandibular device which basically is going to reposition the jaw to kind of help, or like a CPAP.

00:24:53.961 --> 00:25:00.936
And then what I really like is basically, from like old people perspective, is the Vivos.

00:25:00.936 --> 00:25:22.641
I did Like I've seen 60 and 70 year olds, like I think this is covered by Medicare now, and it's like I've seen 60, 70 year olds literally you don't have to have surgery, and I've seen it double the size of some older people's airways and then it's just like either that or with a CPAP, but like you can do both at the same time.

00:25:22.641 --> 00:25:46.153
Like I talked to so many moms every week that like their kids have like sleep apnea, like, and it's like to hear daily I mean you've seen the guys that work at my gym to see I have moms tell me about four and five-year-old kids that have bigger jaws than every person I work with- yeah, I was just thinking to the guys that work there.

00:25:46.494 --> 00:25:50.747
Yeah, but it's like I got one guy that has a six pack.

00:25:50.747 --> 00:25:55.580
He was a pro golfer, he's 32, he has severe sleep apnea.

00:25:55.580 --> 00:25:57.144
You look at all these guys, they're all fit.

00:25:57.144 --> 00:25:58.646
I got another guy.

00:25:58.646 --> 00:26:05.808
He went through his handlebars with his top six teeth when he was a kid.

00:26:05.808 --> 00:26:10.779
Jaw never developed so he's got like a super small, like that's going to be a nightmare for him to fix.

00:26:10.779 --> 00:26:13.846
And then I got a third guy that's like probably about your age.

00:26:13.846 --> 00:26:14.307
Same thing.

00:26:14.307 --> 00:26:20.536
Like big dude said take some 20 minutes to uncouple his jaw on one side every day when he wakes up in the morning.

00:26:20.536 --> 00:26:22.359
And all these dudes got six packs.

00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:23.182
They look like hell.

00:26:23.182 --> 00:26:26.675
And then you got, you know, ando.

00:26:26.675 --> 00:26:29.863
That works for us Like he had his wisdom teeth removed when he was 20.

00:26:29.863 --> 00:26:36.726
They literally removed his back molars, bottom molars on each side from like cavities, didn't replace them.

00:26:36.726 --> 00:26:49.799
And then I'm sitting there reading yesterday about studies for increased likelihood of Parkinson's due to not having your back teeth and the vertical height, and I'm like like dude, these are all healthy looking dudes.

00:26:50.040 --> 00:26:58.095
Yeah, yeah, yeah, until other other things start presenting yeah, okay, all right.

00:26:58.095 --> 00:27:04.544
Uh, I do want to get into the uh trigeminal nerve, if you can kind of explain what that is.

00:27:04.544 --> 00:27:11.442
You talked about it quite a bit, and then I think we just start wrapping up just with, like, uh resources, of which I think there are going to be a lot.

00:27:12.866 --> 00:27:49.380
Yeah, yeah, I would say like, if you think, like the trigeminal nerve, like think like a Jason mask right, like that's kind of basically the front of our face all the way down, and then it's basically got like three branches that basically like come above and below the mouth and then kind of the forehead, and basically like 50 of our basically our sensory and motor in our brain is tied to that one nerve and basically it connects down to like the c3 and it's like all on one freaking track.

00:27:50.181 --> 00:28:07.691
And this is where oftentimes, because the muscles of the face, the jaw and the cervical vertebrae are all kind of tethered together on the same ride, like that, if they're not balanced, I lack stability for this super powerful nerve.

00:28:07.691 --> 00:28:34.888
And what ends up happening a lot of times is like whether it's severe, even it's a low level, it's like this covert stimulation and that what tends to happen is like this covert stimulation of the trigeminal nerve goes on, and then oftentimes it's like this poor signaling that is a reflection of this, that like tends to start to signal other stuff.

00:28:34.888 --> 00:28:45.269
And this is where, like, things go sideways and then just you've got a nervous system that's literally been like sensitized all because, like this is off.

00:28:45.269 --> 00:28:54.289
And then you've got a kid that's hypersensitive to everything from allergies to nervous system and you name it.

00:28:54.289 --> 00:29:10.143
But like there's so much there from like just health issues especially tied to the nervous system, Okay, is there a person who speaks about this, specifically, the trigeminal nerve?

00:29:11.315 --> 00:29:11.635
Yeah, like.

00:29:11.635 --> 00:29:51.788
So I think like the neuromuscular dentist is key and for someone that understands it and I think more so someone that's a neuromuscular dentist, that has a specialization in TMD, which is basically the TM joint dysfunction, I think oftentimes we'll kind of maybe a functional dentist might understand it versus someone that's maybe more qualified to treat it, might be someone in that world, and then you know, I've just found that there's those with, I think there's some that just treat it with Botox and splints for the rest of your life, and then some that'll go in and fix with, fix the occlusion with braces and stuff like that.

00:29:52.336 --> 00:29:54.019
Okay, cool.

00:29:54.019 --> 00:30:01.099
So, gus, I have so many notes already, but I do want to circle back to the dentist, right?

00:30:01.099 --> 00:30:16.057
So, if you speak to a lot of parents, what are questions either for themselves or for their kids, what are questions that they can and should be asking if they're worried about this or suspect this is what's happening and it's not being diagnosed.

00:30:18.862 --> 00:30:24.789
I think, first and foremost, there's this biometric marker that called the intermolar width.

00:30:24.789 --> 00:30:26.298
That I think is humongous.

00:30:26.298 --> 00:30:48.366
It's not that it's everything, but I think it's very important and I think for every parent moving forward to kind of be at least under the care of someone in that world that understands that to monitor your child is important Because, like 40% of our facial development is done by the time we're like four years old.

00:30:48.366 --> 00:30:56.087
So I think there's this kind of someone that's going to help steer your child.

00:30:56.087 --> 00:31:04.423
If, like by five or six, there's intervention that needs to be done, but like this, I would say that's really important.

00:31:05.536 --> 00:31:21.284
And then I think searching out like a pediatrician especially two, that works with someone that's like a functional dentist or a pediatric dentist that does expansion, I think is really important because most pediatricians don't even know.

00:31:21.284 --> 00:31:29.326
So then they start your kid on asthma meds or this and that, and they're five or six and it's like, rather than just kind of getting them the right help, I think that's important.

00:31:29.326 --> 00:31:34.961
And then a regular dentist that's actually going to ask, like how is your child sleeping?

00:31:34.961 --> 00:31:36.746
Like do they snore?

00:31:36.746 --> 00:31:53.537
Do they keep their mouth closed when they sleep or when they're breathing all day long, like I think those are like really important questions, just low level, to kind of catch things early on so, on the inner molar width, is there a way to measure that is like there's something you can buy, or is?

00:31:53.696 --> 00:31:58.527
do you just like put a piece of paper in your mouth, stomp down on it?

00:31:58.767 --> 00:32:05.949
yeah, like I have like these little wax bite plates and obviously it's not like a 3d ct scan, but it's like at least kind of gives people like an idea.

00:32:05.949 --> 00:32:09.967
Literally, like they're like these wax squares, you can cut them down.

00:32:09.967 --> 00:32:12.797
Um, there's a lot of little things.

00:32:12.797 --> 00:32:20.288
You kind of figure out a way to just literally have your kid bite down and kind of have an understanding is that what's I'm?

00:32:20.307 --> 00:32:21.531
you can finish.

00:32:21.531 --> 00:32:24.298
I got this question written down.

00:32:24.419 --> 00:32:38.625
I would just say like I think that's really important for parents to like have a dentist or a doctor that understands that that even matters, because if they don't, they don't understand airway and its long term effects on your kid's health.

00:32:38.625 --> 00:32:43.443
Like straight up, like I don't care if they're your neighbor 're awesome, that's cool, they're a good human.

00:32:43.443 --> 00:32:50.271
But like long term for your kid, like that is so important, nice, that's huge yep, okay, uh is.

00:32:50.512 --> 00:32:52.016
Is that something that can be measured from an x-ray?

00:32:54.840 --> 00:33:08.798
um, I mean technically you probably could, I don't know like for little kids, like how often I guess I speak with people a lot of times that like they're taking their kids and they'll do the 3d scans because like people want to check.

00:33:09.380 --> 00:33:20.356
I think the other really important thing is finding a pediatrician or airway doc that is looking and measuring your child's nasal resistance, because that is the number one thing.

00:33:20.356 --> 00:33:22.751
Like your kid will have a mouth breathing problem because of nasal resistance, because that is the number one thing.

00:33:22.751 --> 00:33:28.958
Like your kid will have a mouth breathing problem because of nasal resistance, and that should always be accounted for.

00:33:28.958 --> 00:33:47.159
So even the best, I think airway docs, orthos, are working in conjunction with an ENT and it's called four phase rhinomanometry, where ent can actually measure your child and there's some pediatric dentists that actually have them.

00:33:47.159 --> 00:34:03.106
So it's like a, it's a tool that they can use in conjunction pre-post treatment to kind of basically look at age, height and kind of like just the normalized data and often it will tell like, is your child breathing well, can they move air?

00:34:03.106 --> 00:34:06.182
And if they can't, where the issues lie structurally.

00:34:07.025 --> 00:34:07.646
Okay, cool.

00:34:07.646 --> 00:34:10.811
So that's the four phase, rhinometry.

00:34:10.811 --> 00:34:11.574
Did I say that right?

00:34:12.135 --> 00:34:13.581
Yeah, rhinomanometer yeah.

00:34:13.762 --> 00:34:14.423
Rhinomanometer.

00:34:14.423 --> 00:34:16.021
Oh yeah, of course the rhinomanometer.

00:34:16.021 --> 00:34:20.340
So, that's how you measure nasal resistance.

00:34:21.282 --> 00:34:21.543
Yeah.

00:34:22.164 --> 00:34:23.367
Okay, all right.

00:34:23.367 --> 00:34:25.693
Um, so that's how you measure nasal resistance.

00:34:25.693 --> 00:34:26.414
Yeah, okay, all right.

00:34:26.414 --> 00:34:32.469
Uh, and then what's the exact language you would use to say I want a 3d scan to measure my inner?

00:34:32.490 --> 00:34:39.023
molar width, or maybe it's just that, yeah, so like you could do a 3d CT scan or it's called a cone beam, just be like you know.

00:34:39.023 --> 00:34:50.362
You could ask, like I guess the one thing I would always tell parents, especially in the world that airway is vetting the doctor prior to going, I would just say, you know what does their assessment look like?

00:34:50.362 --> 00:34:57.123
And then, or even if you find out like, is this person expanded any kids your kids age in the last year?

00:34:57.123 --> 00:34:58.445
How many have they?

00:34:58.445 --> 00:35:03.637
Because it's like if they're not doing it then it's probably not even something they're looking for.

00:35:03.637 --> 00:35:13.516
But I think, to kind of start somewhere, that they you know, that they even have an understanding of whether your kid should do that or not, I think is huge in this world.

00:35:13.516 --> 00:35:22.144
And then I would just ask you know, does the doctor do cone bean scam or does he have a way of measuring the interval or width and his?

00:35:22.144 --> 00:35:25.101
You know what's their philosophy as far as when to expand?

00:35:25.784 --> 00:35:32.065
Okay, yeah, I think that's really helpful, just because it's better than somebody having to call their dentist, which is probably uncomfortable enough and be like.

00:35:32.065 --> 00:35:39.943
I listened to two guys on a podcast talk about this thing, so that's why I wanted to get the you know, get the exact language around that.

00:35:39.943 --> 00:35:47.927
Okay, so I think that's a good place to start for people with in a role or with either for themselves or for the kids.

00:35:47.927 --> 00:35:52.085
Pediatrician should be working with a pediatric dentist as well.

00:35:52.085 --> 00:35:55.184
How to measure nasal resistance I'll link to all that.

00:35:55.184 --> 00:36:06.110
Are there any people that are good to follow on either social media or just in the space that you want to point people towards, that are kind of have accessible information around any of this?

00:36:07.456 --> 00:36:12.920
I would say the Breathe Institute and Dr Soroush Zaghi.

00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:20.603
He's there, so he's like an ENT and a sleep doc, but he has kind of helped drive that place.

00:36:20.603 --> 00:36:31.007
There's a Dr Karen Parker Davidson, and her Instagram handle is the nose nose.

00:36:31.007 --> 00:36:44.360
She could be the smartest person I've ever heard when it comes to basically the mechanics and nasal resistance and testing from an airway perspective.

00:36:44.360 --> 00:37:00.309
I mean, she's super smart, she's very well connected, been in the game for like a long time, um, and then I would say dr courtney donka I think it's d-o-N-K-O-H.

00:37:07.855 --> 00:37:18.362
She is a pediatric doctor or pediatric, basically orthodentist out of Chicago and she actually has like a five-year-old daughter that she's expanded and then she literally does like 15 different kinds of expansion.

00:37:18.362 --> 00:37:30.157
So I think for people to listen to podcasts from a woman who's a mom as well as like a doc in that world, to hear like she has a podcast on jaw hacks, that's like really good.

00:37:30.157 --> 00:37:41.047
Just to hear her talk about like what it's like to try to raise a kid, to get the most you know out of their airway at this age, knowing what she knows as a specialist in that field.

00:37:42.014 --> 00:37:42.677
Okay, cool.

00:37:42.677 --> 00:37:43.378
Yeah, that's great.

00:37:43.378 --> 00:37:45.103
We'll definitely link to all those.

00:37:45.103 --> 00:37:49.809
I'll try to find some of those, some of those podcasts that people have done, and link to those as well.

00:37:49.809 --> 00:38:05.626
Are there any other resources you want to provide, like there are any like tools that you use, or is it all just kind of specific to the tools will come with the, I guess, diagnosis and interventions to the tools will come with the, I guess, diagnosis and interventions.

00:38:05.646 --> 00:38:10.538
Yeah, I think, like I guess for kids, like really good, it's called a myo munchie.

00:38:10.538 --> 00:38:12.945
That basically it's like a chewing device is like really good for stimulation.

00:38:11.815 --> 00:38:12.184
Is it like a jaws or size.

00:38:14.115 --> 00:38:19.847
Yeah, not really, but kind of a great device.

00:38:19.847 --> 00:38:34.708
And then I really think like the one other thing I would say, like for a lot of parents too, is, uh, just some of the different stuff, like either like the intake nasal valves or like some of these like splints for your nose for like sleeping, especially for like older people.

00:38:34.708 --> 00:38:39.487
I think like there is nothing better than for someone that's going to undersize airway.

00:38:39.487 --> 00:38:46.976
It's like these are five dollars on amazon and literally it's like called the mute nasal dilator and literally it just sits in your nose.

00:38:46.976 --> 00:38:50.945
And I mean my mom thought I was doing like black magic with her nasal resistance.

00:38:50.945 --> 00:38:57.036
Like she put it in and literally like there's uh it's called a paniff where it measures your nasal resistance.

00:38:57.036 --> 00:39:09.960
My mom was literally a cutter nasal resistance at half, but my mom's like for something that easy, it's literally probably like that's a low-hanging fruit to help most people just like sleep better pretty good bang for your buck there.

00:39:09.980 --> 00:39:13.648
Yeah, do you do anything with uh mouth taping?

00:39:16.438 --> 00:39:18.081
it's kind of one of those things like I have.

00:39:18.081 --> 00:39:30.894
It's kind of more like I guess it doesn't change like how I sleep, so it's not like, uh, I guess from all the myofunctional stuff I've done, like it doesn't I don't feel like when I do it it like alters anything.

00:39:30.894 --> 00:39:34.985
I think some people like I mean I've seen the research.

00:39:34.985 --> 00:39:38.702
It's like probably 50% reduction in snoring and stuff.

00:39:38.702 --> 00:39:48.817
I guess people to just be careful, like if you have a clog here and now we're taping this, like just you know, obviously always check with the doctor first.

00:39:48.817 --> 00:39:59.074
And I think for those that are going to do it without it, like if it's not significantly making it better, I probably tell people not to do it unless you're like oh, this is game changer.

00:39:59.074 --> 00:40:02.541
Like Brandon my business partner does it and it like it really.

00:40:02.541 --> 00:40:03.965
He's like dude, it really helps me.

00:40:03.965 --> 00:40:06.777
I think it's more of like cause he has enough space.

00:40:06.777 --> 00:40:12.079
I think it's more of like a postural tool to just kind of his nervous system to keep it in check.

00:40:12.541 --> 00:40:17.559
Yeah, yeah, like he might just be getting lazy at night and just, uh, the jaw just drops open a little bit.

00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:32.119
Uh, I haven't mapped tape, probably since whenever the last time I saw you was, but even around then I wasn't doing like the strictly actually taping it, it was just sort of like around the lips it was just providing a little extra pressure to like keep them closed, but if I needed to, I could pop it open.

00:40:32.119 --> 00:40:35.927
Yeah, all right, um, I don't know that.

00:40:35.927 --> 00:40:43.894
I, yeah, I don't know that anything else or any other resources you wanted to share um, I'm trying to think.

00:40:43.934 --> 00:40:48.909
One other good woman is, uh so dr dr saru zagi, he's at the breeze institute.

00:40:48.909 --> 00:40:52.976
His wife dr nora zagi, she's really good as well.

00:40:52.996 --> 00:40:54.938
How do you spell that last name?

00:40:55.278 --> 00:41:11.731
um, uh, z-a-g-h-i Okay, but I think like she's really good, she's a pediatric like dentist, like really good, just like from a mom perspective and all that stuff as well.

00:41:12.351 --> 00:41:18.306
Okay, great, all right, so that's, that's all I had on all the mouth.

00:41:18.306 --> 00:41:20.599
Stuff I'd love to just hear about, like how work's going though.

00:41:20.599 --> 00:41:21.641
How's the gym I love working there.

00:41:21.641 --> 00:41:24.327
So I kind of I miss the stuff I'd love to just hear about, like how work's going though, how's the gym, um, I love working there.

00:41:24.327 --> 00:41:27.695
So I kind of I miss the space, I miss the people you know, dude, it's been.

00:41:28.376 --> 00:41:33.681
I feel like this last year has been awesome, even the last six months, like dude Wyndham literally won the.

00:41:34.041 --> 00:41:34.322
US open.

00:41:34.322 --> 00:41:36.804
He's like top 10 right now.

00:41:36.815 --> 00:41:47.284
Right right now right, yeah, so I think he finished third last season, but it's like he literally almost won again last weekend, yeah, and it's like sean just won his fight the other night.

00:41:47.284 --> 00:41:50.298
So it's like I saw that number one in the world has been cool.

00:41:50.298 --> 00:41:51.000
Um.

00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:55.956
And then we brought on I don't know if you've met dallas.

00:41:55.956 --> 00:41:58.480
He was like a ex-pro golfer.

00:41:58.480 --> 00:41:59.280
He's from Canada.

00:41:59.561 --> 00:42:00.503
I know of him yeah.

00:42:01.644 --> 00:42:03.708
And then we brought on Cole and Nate.

00:42:03.708 --> 00:42:07.422
Basically about a year ago they actually both grew up in Gilbert.

00:42:07.422 --> 00:42:13.106
Okay Well, our team is fricking awesome, so it's just been fun Like everyone's busy.

00:42:13.405 --> 00:42:13.646
Yeah.

00:42:14.068 --> 00:42:15.059
Uh, major has been in.

00:42:15.059 --> 00:42:18.639
He's been probably 10, 15 hours a week.

00:42:18.639 --> 00:42:21.027
So I just feel like it's like this really good.

00:42:22.112 --> 00:42:26.887
I don't know, it's just fun yeah now the, the dynamic there is always really fun.

00:42:26.887 --> 00:42:30.137
It's like kind of going out and doing the entrepreneur thing.

00:42:30.137 --> 00:42:33.346
It's, yeah, fun in its own way, but you'll definitely lose.

00:42:33.346 --> 00:42:45.302
Like that sort of teamwork, camaraderie plus like a gym setting is just a little bit more fun than like a remote work from home setting yeah, it's like even today, right, it's like I don't know 75, the doors are open.

00:42:45.342 --> 00:42:47.246
You're like god it is just.

00:42:47.246 --> 00:42:50.123
It's like a bunch of your buddies like joking around.

00:42:50.143 --> 00:43:00.777
You're like let's wait, I'm just fun yep, good music on uh, and also just kind of give you a shout out um, the people that you were referencing before, windham clark, uh, pga.

00:43:00.777 --> 00:43:04.204
So if you guys want to look him up, if you don't know who he is, uh, stud golfer.

00:43:04.204 --> 00:43:08.659
Uh, trains with ando there and then, uh, sugar sean o'malley.

00:43:08.659 --> 00:43:11.889
He just uh defended his title, is that correct?

00:43:12.210 --> 00:43:24.525
yep, yeah, first time defend yep, yeah, I was checking twitter on saturday night waiting for that fight to come on, uh, but it seems like he he he handles himself pretty well, but he trains with uh, your, your business partner, brandon.

00:43:25.487 --> 00:43:28.298
Yep, all right, greg, this is fun catching up.

00:43:28.760 --> 00:43:36.137
Uh, this was more than I would ever thought I would have known about mouth things, but you know, it's probably just scratching the surface for what you know.

00:43:36.518 --> 00:44:12.320
Um, and hopefully this is helpful for a lot of people, because I think I really do think a lot of this stuff is just kind of be like the next evolution of where diagnosis goes, because I feel like so many things in the world especially the way we treat things, we just treat symptoms and there's never really a dive into like root cause analysis think a lot of this stuff, once it becomes more widespread and more well-known and better researched, I think it's going to uncover a lot of the mysteries that are kind of out there, with people just not really understanding where their symptoms are coming from and why certain interventions aren't working as well as they should be.

00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:21.068
So I really appreciate you coming on, kind of sharing your knowledge, shedding some light on a lot of these interesting topics we're going to link to you and the show notes as well.

00:44:21.068 --> 00:44:25.840
So if people have questions, as I assume they will, hopefully you don't mind them reaching out to you.

00:44:26.802 --> 00:44:30.617
No, for sure, man, I appreciate you having me Good catching up dude.

00:44:30.739 --> 00:44:31.601
Yeah, appreciate it, greg.

00:44:31.601 --> 00:44:33.427
Hey, everyone.

00:44:33.427 --> 00:44:34.599
That's all for today's show.

00:44:34.599 --> 00:44:39.182
I want to thank you so much for stopping by and watching, especially if you've made it all the way to this point.

00:44:39.182 --> 00:44:45.588
If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are going to be released, feel free to subscribe and make sure you hit the bell button as well.

00:44:45.588 --> 00:44:49.211
To learn more about today's guest, feel free to look in the description.

00:44:49.211 --> 00:44:53.568
You can also visit the podcast website, which is exploringhealthpodcastcom.

00:44:53.568 --> 00:44:56.579
That website will also be linked in the description.

00:44:56.579 --> 00:45:01.954
As always, likes, shares, comments, are a huge help to me and to this channel and to the show.

00:45:01.954 --> 00:45:04.159
So any of that you can do I would really appreciate.

00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:06.385
And again, thank you so much for watching.

00:45:06.385 --> 00:45:07.347
I'll see you next time.

Unveiling the Connection: Chronic Fatigue, Sleep Disorders, and Airway Health Insight with Greg McLean (Part 2)

Listen On

Featured Episodes

Recent Episodes