Unveiling the Connection: Chronic Fatigue, Sleep Disorders, and Airway Health Insight with Greg McLean (Part 1)

Transcript

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Hey everyone, welcome to Exploring Health Macro to Micro.

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I'm your host, parker Condit.

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In this show, I interview experts from all areas of health.

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This can be in areas that you might expect, like exercise, nutrition and mental health, while other topics may be in areas where you are less familiar.

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My guest today is Greg McLean.

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Greg is the co-founder and co-owner of Premier Fitness Systems, one of the top performance gyms in the country.

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He's also been named one of Golf Digest's top 50 golf fitness trainers in the country multiple times over the past decade.

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Premier Fitness Systems is also the gym where I trained out of when I first moved down here to Scottsdale, which is how I know Greg.

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With that being said, you probably expect today's show to be about fitness or training, but it's actually not.

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We're going to be talking about Greg's personal journey to gain back his life.

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Over the past few years, he was struggling with debilitating fatigue, brain fog and just didn't have the energy to live the life that he wanted.

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He was getting a lot of disconnected non-answers from many of his own healthcare providers.

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So, while doing a lot of self-experimentation and research on his own, that's how he kind of figured out what was going on the easiest way for me to describe what we talk about today is to say we talk about a lot of mouth stuff.

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So many people probably don't think about their mouth much outside of brushing their teeth or going to the dentist.

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But there's a lot more going on.

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For example, your tongue should actually sit on the top of your mouth and almost be suctioned up there, and that's the normal resting position.

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Your mouth and almost be suctioned up there, and that's the normal resting position.

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So if your mouth isn't big enough for the tongue to kind of sit comfortably and rest in this position, you can end up with a whole host of health related issues.

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So we kind of use Greg's journey as a roadmap to help outline all of this, which I think will be probably a somewhat unknown topic for a lot of people.

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So if you've dealt with unexplained health issues where healthcare providers can't ever give you a clear explanation and interventions don't seem to work, then this will be a very important episode for you.

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It can get a bit dense, but I do my best to help define a lot of the terms that we go over and kind of bring the conversation down to an approachable level.

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There's also going to be a ton of resources in the show notes to help guide people towards next steps.

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This is a long episode so it's going to be split into two parts.

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This will be part one and part two will be released later this week.

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So, without further delay, please enjoy part one of my conversation with Greg McLean.

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Greg, thanks so much for being here.

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Just by way of backstory, we used to work together.

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We worked together for a year and a half two years.

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I worked in your gym, pfs Premier Fitness Systems, which is a great gym here in Scottsdale, so I've kind of given both of our personal training backgrounds.

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Most people would probably expect that this is going to be about fitness, but it's not.

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We're going to be talking about mouth.

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I described this episode as mouth things.

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Um, understanding, I don't have the language, but mouth, mouth things.

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Yeah, we'll talk about teeth and palates and respiratory conditions, um.

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So anyway, greg, thanks for having me dude.

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Yeah, I can't.

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You're like dude, one of the smartest dudes.

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I know that, like you, like wormholes, I think equally as much as I do.

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And you're like where is the world taking Parker lately?

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Yeah, and to be fair, I was trying to prep for this one.

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I'm like there's going to.

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I want to have a lot of questions, not only for myself but, I think, to get kind of what you like, the depth of knowledge that you have to get it down to a really digestible level for everyone listening.

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But let's just start with kind of what symptoms you had been experiencing, maybe from when we were working together or even prior to then, just to give people context and maybe also give people a framework of people who are dealing with stuff and they aren't getting solutions or they aren't getting answers that are actually solving the problem, and maybe this conversation will sort of open open a new avenue of exploration for them.

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Yeah, for sure.

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I guess for me it like started in 07.

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It was, like you know, I was 30 years old and like, uh, dude, girlfriend, we had just opened lifetime North Scottsdale.

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I had, I think I did like 14 deals of real estate that year and I was supposed to be like, hey, living my best life.

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And it was like the first time I felt like something was wrong, just started to feel like a sensory slash, brain fog, and dude went and got an MRI, just kind of.

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They're like hey, you're healthy, blah, blah, blah, you're good, nothing to worry about.

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And then it's just like dude, I've been through tons of stuff, but like going back to like five years where I was with you, it had gotten to the point where, like since 07, it just progressively gotten worse.

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I guess I started in the world of like regular medicine and then I got into functional medicine, I think, because, like shortly after that stuff, I had developed celiacs, so I wasn't sure how much was related to just what.

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I didn't know, because back then no one knew what the hell gluten was.

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Now everyone knows it's bad for you, right?

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And then it was like you know, I just played the whole basically functional med route, blah, blah, blah, and then that kind of all ended for me back in like 18, where basically I'd flown to Minnesota, I worked with a really good doc, did all kinds of brain testing stuff like that.

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That kind of led nowhere.

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And then I actually worked with Dr Datis Karazi and out at Carlsbad, karasi and out of Carlsbad and that guy works with tons of guys, all kinds of brain damage, all kinds of bad car accidents, extreme sports from concussions, brain gut, all that stuff.

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So he's got a few New York Times thyroid, gut, brain.

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Why isn't my brain working?

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Stuff like that.

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And he actually took me on as a patient and then he put me in one of his seminars where it was like gut brain and I think gave me access to like 1000 doctors for a year and he basically thought it was relative to like everything that I experienced from brain fog, fatigue, was like from a concussion I had, basically from a fight I'd gotten into back when I was like 26, jaw broken, basically jaw wired shut.

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And then you know, basically like three years after is when I started to experience some of this stuff.

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And then you know, I went that route with him and he basically thought it was all like CTE relative to the like, the concussion and all that stuff, and I traded some of his protocol it's like all this stuff just for inflammation, turmeric, resveratrol, all that stuff to basically dampen the response and I was like I think at first I was like, all right, I'm going to go with this.

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And then I was like you know what?

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I'm not going to have this be my life.

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And then so I started looking for other answers and that's where I actually heard a podcast back in early 2019, dr Stephen Lin, and it was basically something about basically our mouths not developing and then, as a result, what's happened to our sleep, our breathing, our health, all as a result.

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And then randomly, I had a client whose husband was a functional dentist in Scottsdale and I ended up talking to her about it.

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She's like, oh, you should go meet my husband.

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He's been doing this for like 30 years and that's kind of like where I started going down the wormhole, trying to really understand like sleep, breathing and all that stuff.

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And we'll get into that today.

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I guess the second question you asked was any advice for people.

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I think 2 things.

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I think that if someone's ever had a concussion really bad whiplash, especially if someone's already predisposed to mouth breathing.

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It's like they don't have internal support, stability and basically any high impact crash check in the boards tackle is basically going to throw this off.

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And the minute it gets thrown off it's kind of like it takes a long time years typically for like the symptoms to start to pop up.

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But I think anyone that's been in that world like seeing someone that's like a functional dentist that understands how to rebalance everything.

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Because if not, like the proprioception of what once was neutral has now been changed and now every day it registers as not neutral and it hijacks your brain and it's only a matter of time.

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So that'd be like one piece of advice I would'd give, like anyone that's been in that.

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Or the second piece, like anyone that has, I think, any types of like autoimmune or stuff as far as like cognitive all those things.

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Is that like going to see someone that understands like proprioception and occlusion and tmj, because basically, like we don't get our cervical spine and our tmj joints balanced with the occlusion it.

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Tmj Because basically, like if we don't get our cervical spine and our TMJ joints balanced with the occlusion, it's like those three form a triangle and if one of them's off, the rest of them are going to be off.

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And then I mean, oftentimes this neurological stuff just comes from like our trigeminal nerve just being disgruntled from.

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You know, 50% of our sensory and motor feedback to the brain come from this one nerve and it's like if our occlusion or jaw or cervical is off, like we're just constantly getting this kind of almost like a downed power line with a direct feed into the brain.

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And then I don't think people realize that like there's a lot there for symptoms that tend to be erratic, they don't make sense, and it's kind of like there's a lot there, especially all your neurological, all your stuff like Tourette's, parkinson's.

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You start to look at all these things from a tics and occlusion, vertical height of the teeth, molars, all that stuff.

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And there's some crazy research out there.

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I can imagine.

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So I don't want to bury people in vocabulary right off the bat, but can you describe what occlusion is, just so we can kind of get that one defined and then we'll move on to kind of the next area.

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So I would say, like occlusion would be just kind of like how the feet, the teeth, fit together, and I think you know just from marketing and braces I think we've been taught that like that means the teeth need to be straight and oftentimes, like the nervous system doesn't care.

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Now, back in the day, they just most of the time ended up there because we did all the right things, whereas nowadays it's almost like putting them in a straight jacket and bring them there, which can be kind of one of those things where people don't understand, when they don't wear their retainer, why everything moves.

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It's like, well, you were brought into this occlusion that the body isn't okay with and that's like a whole nother story.

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But yeah.

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So if I'm sitting here and I like try to touch my back teeth together, or is there a good way that people at home can like just do something with their teeth to understand, like, what a a proper occlusion feels like or improper I don't even know if I'm describing those things the right way it'd be more like this, like oftentimes, because most of our jaws did not develop to full size and it's like we don't even, like, I would say, many people walk around because they lost the ability to breathe through their nose, they'll cl, clench, and a lot of times, like their bottom arch, especially like the back molars, have never even fully erupted because at some point they couldn't support the weight of the head, they couldn't stay nasal breathing and so they started clenching one to support the weight of their head.

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And then it's like basically all the growth centers in the lower jaw, like we were affected from being stuck in fight or flight from I can't breathe through my nose, and then it's like people just clenched and this is where all this stuff can get thrown off.

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And this is where I've even learned in my own journey that even in training it's like everyone's a functional trainer but it's just like all right, there's levels to understanding and it's like to me it was just a matter of like I'm going to keep going until I find someone that understands from a symptom perspective.

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And that's where, like the two best TMJ docs I've ever heard in the United States, like go into looking for distinctions to find help for myself was that, like these guys grow the back bottom teeth myself was that, like these guys grow the back bottom teeth because 90% of our sensory comes from that how the back molars hit, from having stability in the basically the trigeminal nerve as well as, like from our occlusion.

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And these guys both oftentimes say that for many people that have issues with TMJ, it's like they need to grow the back teeth, meaning get the back bottom molars to fully erupt in order to alleviate symptoms.

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Okay, how does one do that?

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How do you get teeth to grow more?

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So basically they have like different devices or they can use like braces with bands and it's basically like it basically creates the situation in which, like the forces are there, as if we're still growing to get the lower arch to fully erupt.

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It's pretty freaking cool?

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Yeah, no, it sounds.

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It sounds like it.

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You touched on something which is just so common in the US healthcare system and it's also like, just based on a seven minutes of conversation already people are probably understanding oh, you really go deep into this stuff.

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So how many doctors do you think you had to go through?

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And just describing the way you went through it, it kind of speaks to like the siloing issue that we have in the US, where most doctors can't really communicate with each other in a meaningful way, in the way that patient data moves from doctor to doctor.

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And then you know, how many doctors do you need, just from like the neck up.

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You have a dentist, you have ENTs, you have neurologists.

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There's so many just for above the neck.

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So, like, how did you navigate this other than just being like so persistent in trying to kind of find a solution, because I'm sure so many people go through this and they just they probably just give up at some point.

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They're like I know, I know how much you went through to some, to some degree.

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So if you can just describe sort of like, uh, which types of doctors you tried to go through, just to maybe give people an idea of where they are and maybe where they can go from here.

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Yeah, like, I guess, like there's, I guess a lot of it all comes back to, first of all, just not really understanding.

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I've seen 50 dentists in my life, right, and no one's ever like.

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Every one of them, when I was a kid, was like, oh, you're a mouth breather, but none of them told me that my jaw was 30% to 40% smaller than it should be per se.

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And then it's just like I got to 44 years old and all of a sudden it's like, dude, you have the job like a five-year-old kid.

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And then my right nostril was pretty much all the way occluded.

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I'm like, yeah, no shit, I got health problems.

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I can't breathe.

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Yeah but which is kind of kind of foundational to life yeah, they're like no doctor's like yeah, you got a problem, let's do something.

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It was always like uh.

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So I guess it's like uh.

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There's the, I think, when we can't nasal breathe, we can't sleep.

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So I think I realized after many doctors that there's like fatigue related to, basically, I have sleep disorder, breathing, but if you have a sleep breathing problem, you have a breathing problem 24 hours a day, which is funny.

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That, like cpaps, the gold standard, it's like well, what about the other 16 hours a day?

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And then it's just like the other side of the fatigue, I think, is like our occlusion and our nervous system being happy and that's like balanced joints with like teeth that work optimally so our nervous system doesn't have to work so hard all day long to make it all work.

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And it's more like when our teeth aren't the way they want, we're not sending good signals to the brain.

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It's like we're actually sending false information of where we are in space all the time, every day, all the day, all the you know.

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And then it's just like that's just like overdrive.

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So I think there's like the airway side and then I think there's like uh, like the tmj and like for me, like I sought many doctors, but it was like one that just did en an ent.

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That was basically tonsils, adenoids, deviated septum, and then it was kind of like that guy was traditional medicine.

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He didn't understand the whole like palate expansion.

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He actually made fun of it, even though my palate expander did testing.

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It hit college, which was pretty fun.

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And then I flew to New York City and there was a really I think he's like the godfather of UARS, this guy, dr Avram Gold.

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You know he's basically been doing sleep medicine for 40 years and he actually went with me to the surgeon there and they've been doing this for like 20 years and I'm like, you know, I've never heard of this.

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And he's like oh yeah, we've been expanding adults for like 20 years.

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And then he basically explains that to me.

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And then I come back to arizona and that's where, like, I found a team to basically help me here to do expansion.

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But then it's just like after the fact it's like, well, if our tongue can't fit in our palate, we can't support basically the, just the nose from basically the nose basically actually almost folds.

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So it's like the palate folds up and the nose closes.

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So now, after all, this time you expand the palate, I can get my.

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But then I realized like I couldn't get my tongue up there and part of the reason it never develops because I had a posterior tongue tie.

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So then it's like, all right, then you do some myofunctional exercises, I figured out how to get my tongue up.

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But then it's just like if you're, if your nose has always been collapsed because you've been a mouth breather, then it's like the nasal valve, basically kind of the end of your nose, has always been compromised and that's what you need to move pressure in your nose.

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So then it's like understanding, like these are all things like teaching myself, like, and now I understand that there's definitely like an order as far as like how I would approach it.

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But it was like I was like this all to kind of figure out my own stuff.

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Yeah, I can imagine also, like not necessarily coming from that background You're kind of just in a dark room with your eyes closed and you're just reaching out, trying to find, trying to navigate your way through this, and I feel like that's how most people kind of think of the US healthcare system.

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I am going to want to come back at some point to maybe giving people a list of questions that they could ask their dentist, because you said you saw so many different dentists and also anyone listening to, just kind of give you context around this.

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I follow a handful of functional dentists on Instagram and like they end up reposting your stuff, so like this is not necessarily like common knowledge amongst dentists, so like some of them are learning from you.

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So that's why I really wanted to have you on here.

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So let's kind of get to the point where you are now.

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You've been dealing with this for a while, so like how are you feeling now?

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And?

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And then we'll kind of go into like what interventions you actually went through.

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Yeah, like, uh.

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So I feel good.

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Like the last 45 days, it's like I feel like I finally found like the linchpin of everything with, like finding a TMJ doc to help me balance, and I literally feel like I started to get my life back.

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It's like my life force, my energy.

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It's almost like to think about something other than just trying to figure out how to get through your day and then just having something left over and then like, oh my God, I can have a life again.

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What am I going to do?

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Because it's been so many years that, like I literally would just come home, work and crash.

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I mean, I've probably done more outside of work in the last two weeks than I did all of last year outside of work, that's crazy.

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All right, so let's go into the actual like interventions.

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You already talked about kind of palate expansion.

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Uh, is that where you started intervention wise?

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yeah.

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So I actually started with.

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It's called the like the vivos dna, so that's basically like uh, it's basically non-surgical.

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Basically you get an upper and a lower retainer and they basically just kind of sit on your teeth and you basically just wear them to bed at nighttime and it's kind of one of those things where it's supposed to be activate stem cells on the palate and get you some growth.

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And that was something where I'd basically worn it for like 20 months.

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And this is where I started this whole journey and I didn't know.

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And what I know today is like, just, if someone is in dire need of way more, I guess plumbing from the nasal perspective like this is not going to get it done.

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And I think oftentimes there's this dentist in our world sell this because they can make money off of it.

00:20:40.625 --> 00:20:46.923
But it's not what I would tell most people in need of like nasal breathing to get, because it's like it.

00:20:46.923 --> 00:20:50.915
Just it does a little, but not like some other things.

00:20:50.915 --> 00:20:55.790
And this is where I basically ran this for like 20 months.

00:20:55.790 --> 00:21:01.703
That's literally like I had just gotten back from New York because I was like, all right, this isn't getting it done.

00:21:01.703 --> 00:21:08.510
And that's when I went there and this is where I found out about Sarpy, which is basically like the surgically assisted rapid palate expansion.

00:21:08.510 --> 00:21:26.585
And that's basically where they go in and they take your palate and they basically like split it down the middle and then they'll basically palate and they basically like split it down the middle and then they'll basically hit your, basically your arches as well, and then they go in and basically put like a can opener basically across your back teeth.

00:21:26.585 --> 00:21:49.227
So basically, yeah, like this was my expander and basically you come out of surgery with like basically two millimeters wider and then literally over the course of the next few months kind of depend on your case they'll expand it and, dude, that changed my life forever.

00:21:50.107 --> 00:22:00.153
I literally like my airway doubled in size, like, but my upper jaw was like 31 millimeters, like like the intermolar width it went to 42.

00:22:00.153 --> 00:22:04.708
And like just total volume of my airway, like just 2X.

00:22:04.708 --> 00:22:14.099
And the most important thing I would say is usually 70% to 80% of the intermolar width increase is basically going to be increased in the.

00:22:14.099 --> 00:22:19.771
Basically, the roof of the mouth is the floor of the nose, so 70% to 80% is going to be increased in the.

00:22:19.771 --> 00:22:20.914
Basically, the roof of the mouth is the floor of the nose.

00:22:20.914 --> 00:22:22.699
So eight, seventy to eighty percent is going to be increased in width of the pipes.

00:22:22.699 --> 00:22:48.372
And this is where, when you talk about like the basically flow and how it works with like a cylinder type thing, like you know, you've got radius to the fourth power, so anything you when I say my job basically went 31 to 42, that's like only the thickness of like 11 business cards, which doesn't seem like much in a conversation, but you know the minute when it comes to like flow and how we move air, it's like wow.

00:22:49.361 --> 00:22:50.306
Yeah, no, I'm sure it's a lot.

00:22:50.306 --> 00:22:58.107
So you mentioned earlier that you had the mouth size approximately of a five year old, so maybe can you give context around that as to anyone who doesn't know what palate expansion is.

00:22:58.568 --> 00:23:01.353
and internal yeah, so like I really like uh.

00:23:01.353 --> 00:23:02.660
So there's a dr kevin boyd.

00:23:02.660 --> 00:23:28.305
He's a pediatric dentist out of chicago and he basically said, like a inner molar width is basically going to be your first molar in the upper jaw, like the space in between, and so he basically uses a rule like this, like he says, 24 millimeters plus one millimeter for every year of age would be like, uh, his kind of rule of thumb that gets you to it like adulthood, for for a healthy number.

00:23:28.305 --> 00:23:51.487
And this is all going off of, uh, basically a dentist, orthodontist, that he had done tons of research from the late 1800s, early 1900s, that did all these kids between four and six years old, and he started expanding these kids because he realized by like six, if a kid wasn't 30 millimeters or larger by six, it was basically going to be a comorbidity.

00:23:51.507 --> 00:23:53.751
This kid already had breathing, sleeping issues.

00:23:53.751 --> 00:24:01.125
It was going to be basically related know, basically related to their spine scoliosis, all this stuff.

00:24:01.125 --> 00:24:04.771
Optimal development was going to be a hindering factor.

00:24:04.771 --> 00:24:08.666
And I mean this guy is like Paris, french, chicago, late 1800s.

00:24:08.666 --> 00:24:10.070
He was explaining five-year-olds.

00:24:10.070 --> 00:24:12.442
So it's not like this hasn't been around.

00:24:12.442 --> 00:24:13.104
You're like really.

00:24:14.286 --> 00:24:14.547
Yeah.

00:24:14.547 --> 00:24:16.691
So like where, where did that get lost in that?

00:24:16.691 --> 00:24:17.993
I don't know, maybe it is, I don't.

00:24:17.993 --> 00:24:21.848
I don't spend a lot of time in like dentist circles, but yeah is.

00:24:21.848 --> 00:24:23.633
Is this not as common as it should be?

00:24:25.344 --> 00:24:31.499
yeah, it's like, uh, there's another, there's a really good uh dentist out of new york.

00:24:31.499 --> 00:24:37.833
He was basically like you know it's it's not fair to say every kid, but he's literally like 99% of kids today.

00:24:37.833 --> 00:24:49.046
This guy, dr Ben Miragli, he's like 99% of kids today are underdeveloped, like it's every kid, like everyone is underdeveloped.

00:24:49.046 --> 00:24:54.286
So, like you know, you take this 24 millimeters plus one millimeter a year at age.

00:24:54.286 --> 00:25:00.487
You basically need probably roughly 36 to 37 to actually be able to fit your tongue in the roof of your mouth.

00:25:01.028 --> 00:25:02.250
Okay, and you were a 31.

00:25:02.250 --> 00:25:06.184
Yeah, okay, so like that of a seven-year-old.

00:25:06.184 --> 00:25:08.551
Yeah, what should have been Okay.

00:25:09.559 --> 00:25:15.428
And then, like I went to 42, but like basically at 37, I can't fit the tongue in the roof of the mouth.

00:25:15.428 --> 00:25:24.468
So I am now left with basically a tongue that doesn't fit in a cage, that's too small and it ends up sticking in my throat.

00:25:24.468 --> 00:25:29.546
The other thing is I can't support the weight of my head over my midline because my tongue doesn't fit in my palate.

00:25:29.546 --> 00:25:38.901
So then it's just like I'm stuck clenching my jaw for the rest of my life, the cost of basically my spine health as well as all my posture.

00:25:38.901 --> 00:25:52.119
And then it's kind of like from uh, I can't move my nap technically because my pterygoids you know the muscles in my mouth I can't get them to free up because my tongue doesn't fit my palate.

00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:55.326
You know, I'm stuck in this really bad habit.

00:25:55.326 --> 00:25:59.814
Just most people don't understand the context of what that means.

00:26:00.935 --> 00:26:01.195
Yeah.

00:26:01.195 --> 00:26:18.823
So for anyone listening, I think understanding the relationship of where your head sits on top of your axial skeleton is largely going to drive so much when it comes to balance and overall posture or maybe not posture but position of how you navigate the world and a lot of that.

00:26:18.823 --> 00:26:21.830
So much of that is driven from kind of tongue, position and palate.

00:26:21.830 --> 00:26:31.000
So if you think about these things from a very extreme example, if you just jut your head forward all day, you're going to feel yourself needing to compensate in certain ways to hold that sucker in place.

00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:33.445
So obviously you get a.

00:26:33.445 --> 00:26:35.128
That's a very extreme example.

00:26:35.549 --> 00:26:45.368
But what you're dealing with, or what a lot of people were probably dealing with, is something that may not be visibly noticeable all the time, but you're doing it all day for years.

00:26:45.368 --> 00:26:52.740
So that's why you get sort of this compounding effect over time, which is incredibly detrimental to exactly what you've been speaking of.

00:26:52.740 --> 00:26:58.653
You were talking about most kids nowadays needing expansion.

00:26:58.653 --> 00:27:01.367
What do you think has been driving that?

00:27:01.367 --> 00:27:13.675
I have theories, but do you know what environmental factors or lifestyle factors there are that are driving the underdevelopment of children's jaws nowadays?

00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:18.009
I mean I guess I would say like a few things.

00:27:18.009 --> 00:27:47.092
It's one like there's nothing better from like, basically, the bioidentical fit of like breast milk and like I always, when I always get into like breastfeeding, I talk about like performance, like if I'm trying to get your kid to the best pro athlete status by age three, I'm going to basically because I think like a lot of moms, like they're like oh you know, shaming moms that can't or don't want to, and it's just like I'm just talking from a pure optimal development, like nowadays that's very important.

00:27:47.092 --> 00:28:00.873
I think it's like getting reps and I think oftentimes people don't understand that like when you breastfeed, you get basically you seal the palate and the way that happens is like your anterior, your hard palate, your soft palate, like seal, like caves.

00:28:00.873 --> 00:28:11.987
This is where we actually get the pressure strategy, like the fact that you have to uncouple from a boob if your mouth is kind of like a fuselage, whereas, like with a bottle, that's not the case.

00:28:11.987 --> 00:28:18.200
So, although it may seem the same, the physics isn't the same, like the fluids of the physics isn't the same like the fluids of the physics isn't.

00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:27.211
And then, as a result, it's like that pressure strategy is the very essence of how we start to set the stage for nasal breathing.

00:28:27.211 --> 00:28:30.809
So I mean, I think that's the biggest thing is like the reps.

00:28:31.921 --> 00:28:45.529
And then I think that there's a few other things I think you have generationally right, we have moms that little by little it's like the food quality, so it's like we're not as robust our bones.

00:28:45.529 --> 00:28:51.053
It's like the very essence of getting optimal epigenetic signaling from our foods.

00:28:51.053 --> 00:28:54.690
You know we fill a lot of our diet now with stuff that doesn't do that.

00:28:54.690 --> 00:29:06.865
And then I think it's like the weaning process, where kids are no longer given food that really makes them work and stimulate the jaw from a forced production standpoint.

00:29:06.865 --> 00:29:13.782
We're given all these soft mush goo, all that stuff and it's kind of like that didn't exist.

00:29:13.782 --> 00:29:22.852
So then it's just kind of like to breastfeed for longer and then getting kids to really do it the right way with really working hard.

00:29:22.892 --> 00:29:28.196
The minute we kind of bring them into the weaning world to really challenge all those things.

00:29:28.196 --> 00:29:39.323
An all-time high from an environmental stuff.

00:29:39.323 --> 00:29:40.885
Right, you've got all these allergies and kids are stuck inside.

00:29:40.885 --> 00:29:49.161
So then it's just like these kids almost need to get everything right and can't afford for anything to go wrong long enough that switches them from nasal breathing to mouth breathing.

00:29:49.161 --> 00:30:03.892
And then the biggest thing I've seen in this because I've probably 300 to 400 people that I've measured their, their jaw like inner molar width, is like just just surveying people and a big part of it is like literally your genetic line.

00:30:03.912 --> 00:30:06.890
that's huge yeah, a lot of it, I'm sure, is out of control.

00:30:06.890 --> 00:30:10.402
My guess was going to be breastfeeding as a primary driving factor.

00:30:10.402 --> 00:30:12.105
Um, I'm trying to interview dr.

00:30:12.105 --> 00:30:12.846
Uh, what's her name?

00:30:12.846 --> 00:30:13.166
Mandeep johal.

00:30:13.166 --> 00:30:13.768
Okay, I can't up in canada.

00:30:13.768 --> 00:30:14.789
Do you know her personally?

00:30:14.789 --> 00:30:16.032
I don't know her personally, but I like know of her.

00:30:16.032 --> 00:30:16.513
Okay, dr, what's her name?

00:30:16.513 --> 00:30:17.134
Mandeep Johal, okay, I can't.

00:30:17.134 --> 00:30:17.635
I've been candid.

00:30:17.635 --> 00:30:18.538
Do you know her personally?

00:30:19.301 --> 00:30:21.113
I don't know her personally, but I like know of her.

00:30:21.636 --> 00:30:27.653
Okay, yeah, she's reposited at least a few of your things up until this point, but she does a lot of tongue ties.

00:30:27.653 --> 00:30:33.030
Did you see that article that was in the New York times about children's tongue ties?

00:30:33.030 --> 00:30:33.853
Do you want to talk about that?

00:30:38.001 --> 00:30:42.059
I'm trying to think like what I wrote up about it.

00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:45.384
It's like um, I'll give a little backstory.

00:30:45.384 --> 00:30:52.210
So there was an article the New York times was like, uh, pointing out there are some functional dentists out there who are doing a lot of tongue tie surgeries on kids.

00:30:52.210 --> 00:31:00.892
I think it's probably a moneymaker and there are probably some bad players in the industry, but it was from what I remember of it.

00:31:00.892 --> 00:31:01.532
It did not.

00:31:01.532 --> 00:31:15.413
It was not framed in a good enough light, probably written by somebody who doesn't understand all the stuff that we're talking about well enough to really do that article justice.

00:31:15.413 --> 00:31:15.633
But it was.

00:31:15.633 --> 00:31:17.519
It was kind of shaming functional dentists on doing too many, uh, tongue tie surgeries on kids.

00:31:18.702 --> 00:31:36.324
So I'll let you explain what you want to around that and I think, like there's a few things, like one I think they ripped on a few like bad seeds with some really shady stuff and you're like yeah, that's shady, like let's not call everyone that and like yeah, you find that anywhere, in any industry no, I think there's like.

00:31:36.344 --> 00:31:47.965
I think the one thing I've seen in medicine is, the more I talk to most docs, it's like they don't really understand the global effect of whatever it is they do on the system.

00:31:47.965 --> 00:31:53.381
You know they'll like to understand their pocket and kind of like, hey, this matters, but they don't really understand.

00:31:53.381 --> 00:32:08.416
Like you know, if 60%, 70% of your cranial facial development is going to happen by four years old and your tongue is the plow in which it's going to drive your field to grow the way you want it to, that thing better be working and we're not waiting.

00:32:08.416 --> 00:32:25.769
And you should understand when it's working, when it's not, when we might have a problem and then it's like all right, it's probably not going to fix itself, which is, you know, these are all the things like, and I think oftentimes in medicine we have a lot of people that like maybe they don't know.

00:32:25.769 --> 00:32:34.606
Like I had a myofunctional therapist for six months and I was like I can't make the caves movement and then I was like I'm going to go looking for answers because they're missing it.

00:32:34.606 --> 00:32:39.595
And then I was like I literally probably Dr Soroush Doggy at the Breathe Institute in LA.

00:32:40.099 --> 00:32:55.232
They're probably the best in the world at educating people, doctors, practitioners on the myoside, the tongue tie release and it's basically like it's never an all or nothing, it's just a perspective.

00:32:55.720 --> 00:32:58.410
And then it's like he's basically got these normative ranges.

00:32:58.410 --> 00:33:02.371
And then it's just like, all right, if you're not in the normative range, like how off are you?

00:33:02.371 --> 00:33:06.590
And then it's like, is it hard to tell or is it extreme?

00:33:06.590 --> 00:33:12.186
And then it's just like I think that's the case, right, people are really good at the extreme.

00:33:12.186 --> 00:33:31.923
And then they're like or they don't really know, like the gray area, like when to take action.

00:33:31.923 --> 00:33:36.250
And this is where I've told people like get on a plane because, like you're two or three year old, like for the's just wait.

00:33:36.250 --> 00:33:42.188
And it's like there's definitely those that are leading where the science is going.

00:33:42.188 --> 00:33:51.605
And it's like not to shame, it's just more like they just they went there earlier in their career and they have more experience around it and just get some good perspective.

00:33:51.605 --> 00:33:58.909
Like, but just, whatever you do, just don't sit on your kid's development at the cost of whatever might happen.

00:33:58.930 --> 00:34:00.732
Yeah, it's kind of wild.

00:34:00.732 --> 00:34:07.993
I don't know what the experience is for my parents, but when I was growing up and going to the dentist, all I ever heard was just brush and floss.

00:34:07.993 --> 00:34:10.748
That was the only conversation that I've ever had.

00:34:10.748 --> 00:34:20.161
I think I'm lucky and I have a wide palate, but I don't know if these conversations have been occurring or if they're happening now.

00:34:20.161 --> 00:34:31.182
My guess would be probably not, maybe more in the orthodontic realm, but again, I don't know if it's happening to a robust enough degree to kind of account for all the things that you were discussing.

00:34:31.543 --> 00:34:43.010
Yeah, and it's just like, dude, I talked to moms all over the world like every day and it's just like, just I think you've got these moms that are like hyper aware now and there's not.

00:34:43.010 --> 00:34:48.909
It's like what I've seen online and some of these best doctors is not down the street for most people.

00:34:48.909 --> 00:34:53.929
Therefore, like that's the hardest thing and it's like you know these moms.

00:34:53.929 --> 00:34:55.813
So like, start using words like perfect.

00:34:55.813 --> 00:34:56.722
I want my kid to be perfect.

00:34:56.722 --> 00:34:58.847
I'm like, oh god, we're in trouble, but it's just a matter of like you know he's mom.

00:34:58.847 --> 00:35:00.393
So like, start using words like perfect, I want my kid to be perfect.

00:35:00.393 --> 00:35:08.253
I'm like, oh God, we're in trouble, but it's just a matter of like you know, just like being realistic and then understanding like all right, like there are good people to go see it.

00:35:08.253 --> 00:35:12.871
Just understanding like who those are and when is it a good time to go see them.

00:35:14.581 --> 00:35:17.067
Okay, so let's bring it back to breathing.

00:35:17.067 --> 00:35:19.342
Uh, cause this should be relatable for a lot of people.

00:35:19.342 --> 00:35:28.253
Can you just go into the basics of mouth breathing versus nose breathing, not necessarily like the mechanism of it, but just the benefits of one versus the drawbacks of the other?

00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:35.748
Yeah, I would say like just the two most important things I think from an overall is one just breathing.

00:35:35.748 --> 00:35:53.041
All comes back to just optimal, like our primary, basically nutrient for our body is oxygen and it's kind of one of those things where if we can't nasal breathe and slow things down, we just don't utilize all the oxygen we have in our blood.

00:35:53.041 --> 00:36:09.068
So oftentimes modern day people stress everything, like we tend to basically over breathe and we end up not getting like the biggest effect, which is like just the calming side of our nervous system with a slowed down breathing.

00:36:09.068 --> 00:36:14.603
And so for many of us, you know we tend to upper chest breathe.

00:36:14.603 --> 00:36:17.972
Part of that is a result of like posture.

00:36:17.972 --> 00:36:23.233
The other part of it is like just just kind of how we've developed and like it's.

00:36:23.916 --> 00:36:37.490
It's it's normal in society, but oftentimes, like most of us don't use our diaphragm so we end up like not getting all the air out and then therefore we can't really fill breath.

00:36:37.530 --> 00:36:50.780
So if you think of like even if I was wearing a snorkel in the water right, and then it's like I breathe out, it's like between my mouth and the air, it's like all that is filled, but it's just like I can't really use that.

00:36:50.780 --> 00:36:52.402
And it's like the same thing with our lungs.

00:36:52.402 --> 00:37:19.161
We have a lot of this, basically dead space, and so essentially we can't stay nasal breathing during our deepest levels of sleep.

00:37:19.161 --> 00:37:25.925
We just get robbed as far as the architecture of our sleep, so it's just like the quality just significantly goes down.

00:37:25.925 --> 00:37:35.722
And this is where I think the biggest thing is like sleep was our greatest resource to basically bring inflammation down, to give us like a clean start the next day.

00:37:35.722 --> 00:37:41.788
And it's like if we can't count on that, if we ever get sick, our body gets run down.

00:37:41.788 --> 00:37:45.463
We we have lost the mechanism in which we can recover.

00:37:45.463 --> 00:37:53.748
And then it's just like many of us just end up burning out our immune systems at the cost of like just not being healthy anymore.

00:37:54.070 --> 00:37:57.925
I used to know this stuff so well, so I'm going to be framing things like questions.

00:37:57.925 --> 00:37:59.327
So please just confirm or deny.

00:37:59.327 --> 00:38:07.423
So nasal breathing provides more resistance because there's just more as you've been describing it like plumbing to go through kind of in the mouth.

00:38:07.423 --> 00:38:08.829
It's just like a short straight shot.

00:38:08.829 --> 00:38:11.280
But that's actually a beneficial thing.

00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:13.204
So you have multiple layers of filtration.

00:38:13.204 --> 00:38:16.010
It also warms the air as it kind of goes in.

00:38:16.010 --> 00:38:26.744
So it's, I think, the you can get better absorption that's not the right physiologic term in the lungs when the air coming in is a better or warmer temperature.

00:38:26.744 --> 00:38:37.739
But also like the resistance that's provided through nasal breathing, I think again I don't remember this anymore, but I'm just kind of going by logic it would make your respiratory muscles stronger.

00:38:37.739 --> 00:38:51.210
So the intercostals, which sort of expand the rib cage, and the diaphragm, which is this dome shaped muscle sort of at the connecting to the bottom of the rib cage, I'd assume nasal breathing, because of the extra resistance, improves the strength of those muscles.

00:38:51.210 --> 00:38:51.992
Does that all sound right?

00:38:52.773 --> 00:39:08.333
Yeah, and then I think the other big thing is just the nitric oxide that we get only when we nasal breathe and then what that does to allow us to utilize more of the oxygen, and then it's kind of like nature's blood pressure medicine to help slow down our nervous system.

00:39:08.333 --> 00:39:12.157
I think that and fight off like from an immune system perspective.

00:39:34.849 --> 00:39:35.009
Right.

00:39:35.009 --> 00:39:39.152
So nitrogen dioxide is a vasodilator, which means it sort of expands the blood vessels.

00:39:39.152 --> 00:39:43.996
It, if you will, because it's one of the only things physiologically that we can control.

00:39:43.996 --> 00:39:53.472
That's both voluntary and involuntary, which is very clever and lucky that we can do that so we don't have to be like dolphins, where we just switch off half of our brain while the other half sleeps.

00:39:54.141 --> 00:40:06.282
We can actually sleep, but for the people who can't nasal breathe, at least effectively, you're going to lose the ability to sort of manually shift yourself into a different state.

00:40:06.282 --> 00:40:20.382
So we can talk sympathetic, parasympathetic if you want to, but it's more like if you're stressed, if you feel anxious and you feel like you're in a highly energized state, nasal breathing is going to be such a good avenue to get you to more of a downregulated, relaxed state.

00:40:20.382 --> 00:40:29.992
So if you don't have the physical capability to do that, you're going to be missing a lot from, you know, the ability to kind of control yourself and your nervous system.

00:40:29.992 --> 00:40:36.143
Did you have anything you want to add on sort of the the benefits of nasal breathing, which could probably be its own episode?

00:40:39.148 --> 00:40:51.960
uh, the one thing like that always stood out to me is my business partner, brandon harris, like into meditation, breathwork and stuff, and he would always say stuff to me about just breathing through the nose and I read something one time.

00:40:51.981 --> 00:40:57.847
That's basically like me, someone that has basically the inability to do it all day long.

00:40:57.847 --> 00:41:02.931
And then working on meditation is kind of like trying to put a kitchen fire out when your house is on fire.

00:41:02.931 --> 00:41:16.632
It's kind of like trying to put a kitchen fire out when your house is on fire, like if you don't fix the overall problem, but like the biggest thing I would say is like this is like the minute I expand in my palate, like I just inherently feel so much more calm.

00:41:16.632 --> 00:41:18.025
Like my whole life.

00:41:18.025 --> 00:41:26.648
I just felt like I had this nervous energy to my personality and it's like now it's like uh, uh, I can't even explain.

00:41:26.648 --> 00:41:32.512
I just feel different in my own body and it's often like understanding that piece of it.

00:41:32.512 --> 00:41:39.942
Now, like how many people's personality is just a reflection of a dysregulated nervous system, all because they can't breathe?

00:41:40.021 --> 00:41:56.103
it's like just yeah, it's yeah, like I don't want to say it's like reductionist to bring it down to that but it being able to breathe is such a foundational thing to just being able to live like a good life where if you can't do it effectively, it's just going to kind of drag everything else down.

00:41:56.103 --> 00:42:00.096
Um, so we we talked about tongue ties.

00:42:00.096 --> 00:42:00.757
Did you get it?

00:42:00.757 --> 00:42:06.027
Did you get a tongue tie release or did you just do myofunctional therapy to kind of get the tongue into position?

00:42:07.070 --> 00:42:08.291
so I did the myofunctional.

00:42:08.291 --> 00:42:46.942
So I february 2022, I had my palate expansion and then last january I had been doing myofunctional for six months and that's when I actually flew out to see dr zaggy and he did the posterior tongue tie release and that was something where he basically added like a centimeter in length to my tongue and it was like that was dramatic in the sense of like to improve the very mechanics inside my mouth and to like, feel it instantly, like oh, because up until that point I could never.

00:42:46.942 --> 00:42:52.260
I could never get my tongue on my palate one because it was like just too small.

00:42:52.260 --> 00:42:59.983
And then I expanded my jaw and then it like I could get the tip but not the back, and then it's like to then have the space and then release.

00:42:59.983 --> 00:43:06.172
It was kind of like someone gave me a bigger cage and a longer leash and it was like this is awesome, right.

00:43:07.815 --> 00:43:09.597
Yeah, so can you?

00:43:09.597 --> 00:43:11.960
Can you just describe, like, where the tongue is supposed to sit?

00:43:11.960 --> 00:43:20.867
Um, for anyone who's like, uh, hopefully at home, maybe listening and be like I don't a lot of people probably don't have good tongue awareness of like what their tongue is kind of doing in their mouth throughout the day.

00:43:20.923 --> 00:43:27.333
Makes me think of my mom, like trying to teach her kind of do it in their mouth throughout the day, makes me think of my mom like trying to teach her and she's like what, what am I doing?

00:43:27.353 --> 00:43:58.112
But I would say like this like, basically, as far as the your tongue wants to sit, basically like a millimeter or two behind basically the back teeth, in an optimal situation for some people that, like their jaw is not quite big enough, it might touch the teeth, but optimally, if it sat out there all day long, it's going to push your teeth outward, which isn't good for the occlusion, but optimally it would basically sit basically a millimeter or two back and then it's just like the tip of the tongue is going to sit there and then it's going to follow all the way along the hard palate into the soft palate.

00:43:58.432 --> 00:44:35.951
And biggest thing I say for a lot of people that haven't had a hard time with this is like, think of, like, if this is basically my tongue here, like if I put like a dime in the back of my tongue, I want to basically think about like I'm basically trying to stamp it up through my palate so that basically the tongue is basically going to sit just behind the front teeth and then then I want to push up and then basically, if I was to swallow once or twice, that's what basically like vacuum seals the palate and you basically have two small caves like the anterior posterior and that anterior posterior like caves.

00:44:35.951 --> 00:44:50.608
That sits there, one protects your airway and then that is the stability for our stomatic naphthic system because it's not going anywhere, and then basically everything from a sensory perspective sits right behind the nose.

00:44:50.608 --> 00:44:55.114
Off of that, from a temperature, vision, hearing, all that stuff.

00:44:55.114 --> 00:45:00.833
So now I have a stable environment in which to take in all my sensory to get it right, kind of thing.

00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:06.487
So I've known this for years, that your tongue is supposed to sit on the roof of your mouth, and it still doesn't totally make sense to me.

00:45:06.487 --> 00:45:08.507
I'm like, but gravity would say otherwise.

00:45:08.507 --> 00:45:20.329
So if anyone's thinking, kind of thinking, that I still think that and I've kind of known the, the, the, the mechanisms behind this for a few years, so to me it still doesn't make sense, but I understand, that's where it's supposed to go.

00:45:20.329 --> 00:45:27.726
Yeah, that's where it's supposed to go, yeah, so I appreciate the explanation.

00:45:27.726 --> 00:45:30.976
Um, all right, so where are we in your like, intervention journey, bowel expansion, posterior tongue tie release?

00:45:30.976 --> 00:45:44.202
Um, can maybe, maybe you go into start describing, like, the myofunctional therapy exercises you were doing, just so people have an idea of what those are yeah, I think like this is like especially for moms, like early on.

00:45:44.242 --> 00:45:47.664
I think this is like important Worst case scenario.

00:45:47.664 --> 00:46:06.802
You can go online, like the Breed Institute they have people, especially people in other countries or people you're listening to that just live in towns that they don't have access the fact that you can do this now online, you can do this now online.

00:46:06.802 --> 00:46:17.420
But I think this is one of the best things because, regardless of like a kid having a good enough size palate or not, like just teaching your child good oral posture and function early on can be like a game changer, whether they do expansion or you just want to help your kid.

00:46:17.420 --> 00:46:41.891
But I think this person oftentimes is in this world and has a good understanding of like oftentimes is in this world and has a good understanding of like does a kid have issues, like maybe they should get expansion, maybe they should do this, but like oftentimes like a good myofunctional therapist, like understands that and could at least guide parents, especially as a first line of attack for those like I don't know what to do, kind of thing.

00:46:42.780 --> 00:46:48.510
But from an exercise it's like it starts with an assessment, you know, looking at the tongue, does it have full function?

00:46:48.510 --> 00:46:56.641
And then it's kind of oftentimes, you know, just living into any bad posture oftentimes will compensate.

00:46:56.641 --> 00:47:02.634
So it's kind of meeting the client wherever they are from, what are they working with?

00:47:02.634 --> 00:47:05.509
And then it's like, okay, how are we going to improve this?

00:47:05.509 --> 00:47:11.592
Or if a child or, like myself, has a tongue tie, it's like, what are the compensations I've made?

00:47:11.592 --> 00:47:19.405
And then let's prepare the body to be in a good place so that if you are to do a release, you're going to get the most out of it.

00:47:19.505 --> 00:47:34.699
And I think of it as like a stickiness as far as people having the ability to keep it, because I think, you know, there's many times where, like, the tongue tie served a purpose as part of our development, and I think that's the other thing that people don't understand.

00:47:34.699 --> 00:47:46.090
Like it's a form of stability for the human body, so at some point we don't want to just go in and cut it, and it's like oftentimes the body is relying on that.

00:47:46.090 --> 00:47:51.992
So understanding like we want to get the body in a good place to be able to be without it.

00:47:51.992 --> 00:48:04.677
And we talk about like a neutral position, you know, getting the body in a good position where everything is kind of neutral and balanced to allow for kind of lasting change as well.

00:48:04.737 --> 00:48:07.443
I think is really important how does mewing tie into this?

00:48:07.443 --> 00:48:10.592
That's one of the only words that I've seen a lot in that space.

00:48:10.592 --> 00:48:11.681
Can you describe what mewing is?

00:48:13.807 --> 00:48:27.985
yeah, like mewing is basically like a lingual palatal suction, where you basically push the tongue up on the palate and you're like it's basically like you're doing bicep curls, yeah, so it's basically like an isometric like, depending on.

00:48:27.985 --> 00:48:36.266
So there's a lot of people out there and it's like I think there's a lot of people out there that don't understand that.

00:48:36.266 --> 00:48:38.300
I've heard some other people that don't understand.

00:48:38.300 --> 00:48:42.170
They put together like this following that it's like what is going on here.

00:48:42.170 --> 00:48:49.266
So it's like it's it's like my mom going on youtube and figuring out what exercises she should do for her fitness.

00:48:49.266 --> 00:48:58.097
It's like she, so it's kind of yeah, but it's like so, like one, I think there's like the dude, mike mu is brilliant man.

00:48:58.097 --> 00:49:00.382
So it's kind of more like it's all case sensitive.

00:49:00.442 --> 00:49:02.846

Unveiling the Connection: Chronic Fatigue, Sleep Disorders, and Airway Health Insight with Greg McLean (Part 1)

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