Healthcare's Second Human Evolution: A Conversation with Jeff Hardy

Parker Condit: 0:00

Hi everyone, welcome to Exploring Health Macro to Micro. I'm your host, parker Condit. In the show, I interview health and wellness experts around a variety of topics from sleep, exercise, nutrition, daily physical activity, mental health, stress management and so much more. By the end of each episode, you'll have concrete, tangible advice that you can start implementing today to start living a healthier life, either for yourself or for your loved ones. And that's the microsite of the show. The macro side of the show is having conversations and discussions around these larger systemic issues that contribute to health outcomes. Here in the US, possibly the biggest example of this is understanding how our healthcare system drives particular outcomes. If we had a different system, we would be getting different outcomes, and this is what we discussed throughout today's episode. My guest today is Jeff Hardy. Jeff is an international healthcare facility futurist and planner and the founder of a nonprofit global health development foundation called Care for Peace. He develops healthcare facilities in underserved, remote populations to promote and provide an end to poverty, hunger, inequality, poor living conditions and much more around the world. Jeff also developed hospitals and healthcare systems for Kaiser Foundation International in the Bahamas, bahrain, kira Kau, saudi Arabia, pakistan, among others. This episode is very much on the macro side. If we were to reference the name of the show, it's conceptual and it's abstract, and it's more about shifting our overall mindsets than it is about providing a checklist of possible solutions. We have found out, kind of looking back in this conversation, that there are a lot of parallels between the issues that are plaguing our global population and some of the issues that we experience here in the US healthcare system, and that was like that was an interesting point for me to discover throughout this conversation. I think this was a very thoughtful discussion and I think it's a great balance to some of the more tangible solution or tactic-driven episodes we've had up until this point. So, without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Jeff Hardy. Jeff Hardy, it's a pleasure to have you on here and normally, as I was discussing right before the call, we just dive right into the meat of the conversation. But for you you're an international healthcare facility futurist and planner. I'm not sure everyone's going to know exactly what that is. So I think, starting with a little bit of background about what exactly you do professionally, I think that's going to be a great place to start and sort of prime the audience.

Jeff Hardy: 2:28

Great. Thank you. I enjoy the subjects that you have prepared me to discuss today, and one of the things that I have been doing in my life is constantly trying to figure out what the best best practice might be, and in other words, in healthcare, we're constantly designing systems around best practice. But the fact is, by the time I get there, best practice has been redundant, has been superseded by something else, and so it means that, as a health planner more a facilitator than anything else I have been responsible for making sure we don't get caught up in the best practice Meyer. But look at what the future just might be, and it's interesting. Some of the things that I did was help architects and owners design hospitals for the future, as opposed to the hospitals that were designed for best practices. Example most hospitals were designed, and are still being designed, around corridor-based hotels. So you go down a corridor and patient rooms are on either side and I realized wait a minute, wait a minute. You can't design a hospital that way anymore. This is not a hotel anymore. This is a high-acuity facility for very sick, injured or ill patients, and so let's design an intensive care type unit that is square, that has a table in the middle of that room and nurses can sit around the table and doctors can sit around the table and look at the patients who are in the rooms on the other side of the table, because we've got glass walls all around. And we did it and it was a phenomenal success. We learned from one hospital in Glendale, california, and then we proceeded to promote it all over the United States. So that's really what my foundation was as a planner was to facilitate the discussion about a future that we didn't have really in front of us. And then, working with Kaiser Foundation International, I worked outside the country many times in hospitals and clinics, and I learned what it was like outside the country, such that, when I sold my company, zyra Corporation, I decided that I'd start helping the poorest people in the world, and so I started an organization called Care for Peace, which is a nonprofit organization, and I did some work in Nigeria, kenya, vietnam, a few other places, but I ended up in Myanmar designing a clinic that was not just a clinic, but it was a community development and health center in a very, very distant rural village in the middle of Myanmar, and we had an agreement with Ansan Suu Kyi's government to prototype something that they could actually build 250 of these places elsewhere in the country. Well, we did it. The clinic the prototype clinic that we started building in 2013 was wildly successful, and that's not just because we provided the money. It was really because the people in the village really understood that we're there to help them, and we asked how can we help? We asked how high you know? And they say here's what we need to do. We'd say, okay, let's, we can do it, and the nice thing about that was is they really took the reins, and so by the time we left in 2016, they were just doing everything and making it 10 times better than what we had envisioned. I'm just really proud of them. The only problem is what? Less than a year excuse me, a year less than a month after the insurrection on our capital, the military, hunta and Myanmar decided that hmm, we can do that too, and they proceeded in kicking out Ansan Suu Kyi and everybody at the Union government, and at that point, we couldn't even go back, much less think about building those 250 facilities. So, yeah, my, my experience is on the ground, helping people do things that they want to do in the healthcare arena, and I've had a wonderful career, a wonderful life, just saying, how can I help?

Parker Condit: 7:15

Yeah, I think that's a very helpful mentality to take into sort of the healthcare service arena, one that's kind of lacking in the US, I would think, and I think that's a really good primer for what we're going to end up talking about. So I kind of want to go to the future first, and then maybe we can revisit what sort of got us to the present moment. So, when we're talking about the future of healthcare, what exactly do you envision, and feel free to break this up into US international, however, is the easiest for you to explain. I'd love to just hear your thoughts on that.

Jeff Hardy: 7:43

I think I have to start in the future, and so I'm going to say that global social responsibility now that's not corporate social responsibility, this is global social responsibility requires healthcare models to be designed to include the health and wellness of every thriving individual all over the world, a planned family, a sustainable community and a robust environment. But currently, most healthcare models, especially in the United States, are business model and they must adhere to political, legal and financial constraints in order to provide curative, clinical delivery and some preventive and education services to an individual. But it really doesn't go much further than that. A global healthcare business model needs to be a healthcare model, and it will require us to establish a global process that addresses two things First, the existing and projected problems created by overpopulation, over consumption, over militarization and overburdening the resources of the planet, and the design of systems that will ensure humanity will endure in perpetuity. That's global social responsibility. We are not anywhere near that yet.

Parker Condit: 9:17

So from that I guess my first question goes to I definitely understand the vision, but how do we get from where we are right now where, as you already mentioned, we are in a very much, very much in the United States a business model where a lot of the biggest players within the healthcare industry are publicly traded companies, so they have a responsibility to their shareholders? So how do we transition, how do we sort of reconcile the current state of things to move towards this more socially responsible future?

Jeff Hardy: 9:46

That's a loaded question, because I think the first thing we have to do is talk about it. We have to discuss the whole issue of what it's supposed to look like in the future, which was the basis for my book To Care for Peace, formally called the Care for Peace Manifesto. But To Care for Peace really is focusing on what it is we're going to have to do as a planet in looking at what is the definition of care, what's the definition of peace and how we are going to get there. And I'll talk in a bit about your second project, excuse me discussion topic that you requested me to think about, which was the whole first human evolution, second human evolution and the second evolution is what we're going to be designing, but we aren't anywhere near that yet. So the first thing we have to do is we must learn from history, from the lessons learned, from the current conditions, and then we have to use our unlimited human potential, our known human methodology, science and technologies at our disposal to realize the previously unanticipated consequences that we have created.

Parker Condit: 11:05

So one of the things that's obviously jumping out to me is the basically number one of what you listed in there about the global social responsibility, which is the overpopulation, overuse, overconsumption, overmilitization, just this very, I guess, like individual-centric mentality where people just consume for their own desires, if you will, for probably lack of a better term. Do you have any suggestions for how we at an individual level let's start there how people can start making more socially responsible decisions? Because I think, even if we're just talking about climate change, for example, the relation back to healthcare is so obvious in that social determinants of health are huge. It's a huge talking point right now. It's like how do we create equity amongst healthcare and access for everyone? And then, when I look at what's going to be happening with climate change, the people who can afford it, they're going to be able to, they can afford to ignore it the longest, and the poorest people in the world are going to be suffering for it. So what can we be doing from an individual level to start making these positive changes?

Jeff Hardy: 12:18

I think, a lot of thought by individuals who are conscious about the problems of the world and how those problems are exacerbated by their own individual actions. These have been discussed and I think that what we need to do is add into the discussion not just what we can do with it ourselves, the individual because, yeah, I mean we need to sort our garbage and put in the blue bin what we need in the green bin and black bin, you know, but we're all kind of there when it comes to what we can do and then we drive our gas guzzling cars to the protest. So I mean, there's just so much we can do as an individual. So I think we have to start group talking. We need to have discussions about what we as a group of humans need to do. And you know that old adage think globally, act locally. Well, I think we have to act locally together, and I don't know if we're already doing that in a lot of ways. If you look at what Bill and Amanda Gates, world Health Organization, the World Food Program, I mean in a lot of ways there are little bits and pieces of thinking a little bit bigger than our local, but in a silo, and I think that as groups of individual people, community people, your meetings, your book clubs we need to be thinking about okay, what is the bigger we that we need to be thinking about? And that's where I talk to people about. Look, put everything into a first human evolution second human evolution context, because the first human evolution stopped mid-60s sometime, okay, when the mutually assured destruction really happened after Truman and somewhere between Truman and Eisenhower. I mean, that was the moment where we realized that, wow, we control nature. That was the whole idea. We were able to do it in tribes and wipe out another tribe. Wow, we were able to control nature. We've done it in nature and we've done it in the medical field by coming up with all sorts of new pharmacologies, technologies, surgeries, you name it we controlled the nature. So in the first human evolution, which ended well, it began like 250,000 years ago, okay, 250,000 years ago and ended around mid-60s. So our job is to realize that where we're right now is in what I call the suspended human evolution, because we can't live in the first human evolution anymore. There's too many things that are really screwing us up and we're screwing up the planet, of course, global warming and rising seas, and look at all the migrants and the Sahel and Sahara Desert, and there are so many hot places in the planet, including here in California right now. I mean it's. So from an individual standpoint, my answer is really not. We're not there anymore. We really got to get this up to a higher level of group, and so what we have to do is get connected to groups that are larger than ourselves and, yes, that includes the family and it includes community, but and it definitely includes our political organizations we shouldn't look at all the mess that happens in the government, because there's always messes, and we have to bring these issues to the people who are representing us, and we have to have discussions with those representatives, every single one of them. So that's one of the things we can do as an individual. We can start reaching out and start using the terminology. Well, that's the first human evolution. We can't do that anymore. We've got to be thinking about the second one, and the second one has to be a planned development. Now, a plan development. That planning is right in my, that's my bailiwick. I do it and I remind people when I say I'm a planner, it's because I learned how to be a planner the hard way, working with Kaiser Foundation International and then finally doing my own company and being able to to get this planning process something that worked for the patients and for the nurses especially. And at that point I realized that it's really not just the idea of planning, getting out a piece of paper and writing something of what it's going to look like, or drawing with an architect. It's really the pre-planning process, which is a process. It's setting a process in motion. To set a process in motion Means you have to think about what that process is going to be going towards. And you look at the AT&T's adage, which was the system is the solution. Well, if you look at what AT&T did, no, the process that lasted years and years and cost the millions and millions of dollars was the solution. The solution that ended up being a huge network of wires and cables and televisions and TVs and and telephones and electronics was something that occurred because the process was the right process and what we need is the right process to get to the second evolution. It's not going to be dreams that are going to get us there. Dreams are very important because in those dreams will begin responsibility and then at that point we will be able to say, ok, this is what we want in the second human evolution. We want to make sure that we don't have an overpopulated planet. Ok, how are we going to do that? What is it going to look like? Well, it's going to look like it's a sustainable planet and there'll be enough resources so that the people who are alive will be able to live in, so we can have continuity of the human species. And, for example of that, there are buzzwords that we can use. I don't use the word, the words population control. No, I use population continuity, because if you can look into a family and say, you know, you can help population continuity by each individual only having one per child. That's a one child per person policy, not a one child per couple. No, that's two child per couple. And the process that we need to incorporate is one where we're really looking at the past first and getting all that information, all that knowledge that's out there and get the people who are positive thinking experts today and bringing them forward and saying, well, what do you think? How would you approach this problem? Not what's the solution, because we are not going to be coming up with the solution by oh, that's it, let's go, it's going to. There's a lot of minimal, smaller solutions that we're going to have to implement, especially now because this whole global warming thing we got to address that. So we're going to have to and that's going to be a part of the bigger solution which will really envelop the second human evolution, and I sure hope it comes. But I hope that we are in charge of bringing it here, because now that we own the reins of developing our new nature, then we're going to have to plan it. We are not going to play God. No, we're going to be the people that we have worked to be All my life, all your life. Look at what we're doing right now. We're talking about it. This is what we have evolved to. So we use the evolution of ourselves that has allowed us individually to get to this point to be the model for helping humanity go the next step to the second human evolution.

Parker Condit: 21:17

Jeff. He brought up a few really interesting points there. One of them I'm guilty of all the time, which is like oh, you're a subject of matter expert. What's the answer? What's the solution? Like most of my questions on here are all right. Well, here's the problem. What's the answer? You must know. But I'm glad you kind of already touched on it, in that it's a process and a lot of it is. It's just these conversations making people aware that there is a problem, there needs to be some sort of shift for the future. So I mean, this is one of the big driving reasons I want to have this conversation. And I want to go back to another point as well. You mentioned tribalism and I see a lot of parallels between what you're talking about at you know, and the fact that these two things are running in parallel totally makes sense. Where you were talking about, like, what needs to happen at a humanitarian or like at the population level for humanity across the world, where people are sort of in their silos, and that can be a particular religion, it can be a country that you're a part of, anything like that, any sort of silo. But you also see that within the healthcare world too, where everything is extremely siloed. So do you think at the more at like a lower levels at healthcare for example, there are all these silos and I think you and I would probably agree that if there are less silos and there's more coordination and there's more continuity is a great word that you used there's more continuity amongst those different types of providers and practitioners and healthcare workers, that that would improve care and access and I think it would improve health overall. So are you looking at sort of these various industries and trying to influence change in them? That's gonna collectively work at the humanity level as well. Is that a good way to think of this?

Jeff Hardy: 23:05

Yeah, yeah, that's another multi-pronged question Because, in my thinking, first of all, I've done all sorts of stuff to break down the silo in healthcare, especially hospitals. An example of that I wrote articles about what I called patient administration. There was a front cover article on patient administration that I wrote for the healthcare financial management magazine years ago. It's still on the internet, I'm sure.

Parker Condit: 23:40

Is that HFMA?

Jeff Hardy: 23:42

HFMA yeah.

Parker Condit: 23:43

I was just at their conference. Oh, the great people A month ago.

Jeff Hardy: 23:46

Yeah, it's great conference, great thinkers. Don't even get me started. I belong to the HFMA for a long time and before I retired, at any rate. Yeah, the whole idea was to merge all these nonclinical department clerical people and then, so that somebody in the admitting department was able to know exactly what it was to be in the collecting department, so that they didn't get the wrong address or made sure they got the right address of the patient, they got the right insurance information and they also worked in some of the clinics and in the laboratory and the pharmacy and the radiology. Well, the ironic thing that happened when we did this first in Auburn Faith Community Hospital in Auburn, california, we actually built a building called Patient Administration that even included home health in it and medical records and patient accounting, and all of a sudden we had something that we didn't imagine. It's one of those unanticipated consequences. Our Gallup polls went through the roof because the employees were happy and the patients were happy, of course, because they didn't complain about the fact that every single time I go to another department, they ask me the same questions. They want my name, they want my card, they want my number or any of these people know who I am, you know that disappeared. And so the Health Advisory Board found out about this and wrote about Patient Administration and their million dollar cost savings. You know, somebody went out there and found out that, gee, we also saved them At least the smallest hospital $3 million a year. So, patient Administration so see, consolidation is my middle name, because after I did that, I also then started doing this whole thing with the nursing unit, where you consolidate the nurses so that they can actually talk with each other and they can look across the table and, like you and I have imagined you're across the table from me and you know there's a glass window to your patient room, like behind you. When I say, hey, your patient just pulled out his trach, you better stop talking with me and go. You know, deal with that patient. Well, the nurses just loved it because they don't have sore feet at the end of the day. And what do nurses do best? They communicate. Nurses are communicators. So, and it was nurses really that inspired me in my life to get started with Care for Peace, because nurses are absolutely the essence of what it means to care and the piece that they get when they're giving care is a different kind of piece than the one you think of when you think about the piece that comes between wars and the piece that you might have when you're sitting on the mountain with your eyes closed and your legs crossed and saying, oh, we're watching a flame, we're looking at a flower. It's a different kind of piece. When I was in the United States reserves Coast Guard reserves trainee and I had to take care of patients men who were coming back from Vietnam in beds, ill, suffering from wounds, you name it. I experienced that piece and that's the reason why I changed the title from the Care for Peace Manifesto to to Care for Peace. And that is a different. It's an active care and the piece is a dynamic piece that you get from caring and it's a wonderful thing Nurses have that. So, with all the unanticipated truths that were out there that we got when we thought about merging the unit I'm consolidating a unit consolidated patient administration. The truth that we had that I got in my own heart long, long time ago, I hate to say it, when I was in the Coast Guard activity reserves was unbelievable and I've spoken to nurses in my days when I was traveling around the United States. I've gotten nurses to stand up and not applaud, but to give me a crying ovation. Think of that. I got a crying ovation. They were going oh my God, that's what it is. Yeah, yeah, I know what that is.

Parker Condit: 28:42

Yeah, I totally believe that and I appreciate you sharing the story about the nurses. I think most people that get involved in healthcare I'm not gonna speak for everyone, but a lot of them that get involved in healthcare they do it because they wanna help people and then, at least in the United States, this is what I can speak to most eloquently is the fact that there's so much burnout because of how much administrative rigmarole there is, so much like nonpatient care, so much effort has to go into that, so much paperwork, so much administration, so much just dealing with the insurance side of things, which is just this third party that's not exactly involved in the relationship between the provider and the person who's getting the care. So there's just all these pieces that are just another step, another step, another step removed from that actual relationship that you're probably. It sounds like you're facilitating a more direct relationship between the people who got into the industry to help people and the people who need help.

Jeff Hardy: 29:42

Yes, I like how you said that that's during the what is it? The patient focused days, when we looked at patient focused care. Well, you know, I said to a bunch of nurses one time. I said what do you think when you hear patient focused care and they're going uh-huh? I said yeah, because and I wrote an article about it for the AARP times I think that's respiratory, respiratory therapies, that no, no, no, no, no. It's not patient focused care, it's nursing focused care. If you focus on the nurses, they'll take care of the patients. They went to school to learn. They talk with each other, they know how to take care of patients. So let's do nursing focused care and of course, that goes along with designing a facility so that those nurses aren't so ragged, ragged at the end of the day from walking down corridors and walking here and walking there. You know, I mean, I've talked to nurses who walk down a corridor to the end to respond to a patient call button and the patient has already fallen asleep, you know. So what does she do? She has to walk back to the nursing station. She says well, the patient fell asleep. Oh, here's the patient in the room next to that patient. They just rang their call button too. Well, you should have looked at the light above the door. You know it's like. I mean, I have heard so many stories like this. I am. I should write a book that is entitled. The nurse said dot, dot, dot. Those people, yeah. And, by the way, let me say this I also don't think they should be called nurses anymore. I think we should call them registered clinicians, because us guys don't. I mean, you know, I mean I'm generic, you know registered clinician is really what they're doing. A doctor is not a clinician. You can't just say the doctor's a clinician, yeah, he is, but we should have registered clinicians. And there's more than just the reason because I like the title better than a nurse, because people would ask me are you gonna stop being a hospital corpsman on the coast guard and take up nursing? And I said no, I'm not. And because I didn't want to, I didn't want to be a nurse. It's just, and there's a lot of guys who feel that way, and so, and one of the other reasons is very important, and that is that I believe that we need to start looking at the whole process profession of helping patients in a clinical delivery and care setting as a progressive process and not a okay, you have an RN, okay, then you have to go back to school to become a nurse practitioner. No, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Once you do one thing, let's merge the whole process of learning how to do another thing and another thing and another thing so that, just like a hospital corpsman, I was an HM3. So then you should go to HM2, hospital corpsman two and then HLM1. I don't stop working. I'm learning all the time, and that's another reason why I think a registered clinician process would be much better than this fragmented silo process where we have, remember, lvns and vocational nurses. I mean, then they had to quit and go back to school so they could become an RN, and the school system loved it because they got more money from them. And I'm sitting there. Well, these LVNs, licensed vocational nurses, knew exactly how to be a good nurse. All you have to do is give them a test and a check off list and maybe a you know a verbal thing where they have to talk to a team or something. I don't know, it's just to me. We've got to keep breaking down your word to silos.

Parker Condit: 33:38

Yeah, I'm certainly not against some sort of large reform for higher education, so I'm sure that's a different conversation, but a related one as well. But yeah, you mentioned patient-centered care or patient-centric care. It's amazing that that's kind of become like a bit of an advertising term or it's a good marketing term for companies who are like oh, we practice patient-centric care and like that alone, the fact that you're saying that now, like it's a change kind of alarming that there was anything other than patient-centric care and that it can be used as a marketing term.

Jeff Hardy: 34:14

Well, you just corrected me on something and I realized that. I just realized, yeah, they're saying patient care centered and that's for the patient to hear. And where I was, I was inside the hospital center setting and I was looking at the nurses. So you're right for the marketing that needs to be out there.

Parker Condit: 34:34

Yeah, but it's like, why was that not always the case? How long have we been operating with not patient-centric care?

Jeff Hardy: 34:41

I don't know. Look at pain management. I mean, how long did it take us to realize that we need to look at pain management? I have a bad back? No, you don't. I can't see it. You couldn't even tell your relatives that you had a pain, a bad back, until you could actually get a copy of the x-ray and show them what a bad back looks like.

Parker Condit: 35:06

Yeah, pain science is really interesting because I worked as a personal trainer for a long time, so I ended up working with a lot of physical therapists and yeah, pain is a really fascinating thing in that it largely lives in the mind. It's not to say it's not in the body, but it starts and sort of lives in the mind, which is a whole nother fascinating conversation. Yep, yeah, exactly, so if you don't address that, you can do all the tricks and tools for the physical body that you want to, but if you're not addressing the mind, it's probably not going to resolve anything long term. So I kind of want to go to sustainability and we've touched on this a few times, but you've spoken about, or you have this idea of, how medical institutions and sort of healthcare organizations can become leaders for sustainability. So again, I know I'm asking for solutions and that's probably not the right question, but can we just talk about that for a bit and talk, maybe, maybe. What do you think is the right process to start moving in the right direction?

Jeff Hardy: 36:08

Well, it is the right question. It is the right question, the whole issue of getting administrators and doctors, especially medical doctors, but, by the way, I mean care for peace. We have doctors and nurses on our board. A doctor, dr David Holbrook, helped me start to care for peace, and the recent chairman of the board is Dr Donald P K Chan, who was an orthopedic spinal surgery instructor for 50 years at the University of Virginia and he's linked us up with the Global Health Institution at the University of Virginia. Doctors are not just my friends. I work with them all the time and same with nurses. I am passionate about my relationship with these incredible people and professionals, and the one thing I can say about all of them or maybe there's a few I can't include, but most of them they are eloquent speakers. They know how to educate. Ah, you know how? About some more bedside manner for every single person in this planet who needs to learn about the first human evolution and the second human evolution? It's the doctors and the nurses who have that capability. Going into that discussion, they're already there. So the biggest thing I say about sustainability and the teaching thereof is that we've got some great teachers out there, the best doctors who are the best patient care people are the ones who have a relationship with the patient. They know how to relate. Even the insurance companies they'll tell you that the ones who don't get sued as much are the ones who have a good bedside manner. So it's the combination of the bedside manner and their expertise at teaching and communicating that we need more of. And I don't think any of this stuff about population continuity is something that would not be dear to every physician's heart who has to deliver too many babies for one woman and realize that the babies, this baby that they just helped survive, might not survive for very long. I've worked outside the country and I'm talking about like in Nigeria and Vietnam, and I've talked with physicians and I've met these good people who will tell me this woman can't afford this. This baby it just. You know this is really not right. So obviously we're going to have to get more into population continuity planning at all levels. So, yeah, sustainability, you know we want sustainable planet, we need sustainable resources, we need lots of sustainable. And that's where we get into the discussion about future of health care, because if we don't have a future, we're not going to have a future of health care. Does that sound common sense, or what? So we've got to think about sustainability on every single level. Health care can be, and should be, a byproduct of the ultimate sustainability of our planet.

Parker Condit: 39:33

Yeah, that's a great point. So I want to attack this now from the patient side of things. If we have, we do have a lot of resources as far as people who can be great educators very eloquent, very well spoken, very smart can certainly inform the masses. Also, we're living in a great time for that, in that, you know, this is our first interaction and we're getting to have this conversation right. So, with the availability of technology, the spread of information is now not the problem Largely, I think it's finding reliable sources of information. So I think we're living in a good time for this. But from the patient side of things, like, what can patients do to be better advocates for themselves, one for their own health, but also to maybe there can be a big push from the patient side as well towards a more sustainable future? Is that how you think of things as well?

Jeff Hardy: 40:29

I would say yes, but I would also say that it's not my area of primary interest, because I'm really looking at macro to micro, and you're talking about the micro and there are a lot of very, very good experts. One of our board advisors was Pat Salber, who was a doctor, is a doctor, medical profession and she had the doctor ways in DWW let's see T-D-W-I dot com and she was doing a podcast every single day for years and years and there's a person who was into education and into the whole sustainability. She was interviewing people and everything and do mostly a health problem. She stopped that site, but there are a lot of people like Pat Salber who are just already there. When it comes to the education process of patients, because that's your question, your question is what can patients do? You know, that's just. I'm at the macro level and my macro level is what can I do by using my expertise and in the planning of healthcare facilities and healthcare systems and methodologies, management and operations? Okay, you know I did a lot of management, engineering and didn't even know how to spell it, but I did it and that's what I do and I wouldn't want to take that area of expertise that I'm really trying to pass on to the global issues of today and dumb it down to the point where it's an area that isn't my expertise at all, which is patient focus care. That's why I have so many good doctors, friends, because I can call my internal medicine doctor and ask them hey, what should I do about this bunion that I've got on my foot? And they, oh, jeff, I'll be glad to help you. So you know, I'm a good patient, I'm a great patient, but I can't. I couldn't get to that patient level that you're talking about, and I'll excuse me. I've seen some of the podcasts that you've had on already, so you've got people who are really focusing more on that issue, or somebody who did on diabetes. That was a great podcast, and that's the type of those are the people you need to be talking to. I'm a macro guy. I'm the guy who's trying to break down all the walls between nations. I am looking at global social responsibility, not international social responsibility.

Parker Condit: 43:21

I'm looking at global social responsibility Right Well beyond the national and international borders. Yeah, I figured I would ask because it's kind of a way to attack it from both sides. But yeah, I've done most of the shows that we do are more at the individual patient level, but I figured I would ask anyway. But also, see, it speaks to your level of knowledge and wisdom. You know what you don't know. That's not your area, so we'll stick with the macro stuff. So I think We've talked about it a few times, or it's come up a few times already the first and second human evolution. Can you just kind of give us a quick definition of what the first human evolution was? I'm sure most people have a decent idea of what we've been speaking to up until this point. But if you could just do a quick definition and then we can get into more what the second human evolution will have to be, the best definitions are the shortest and sweetest.

Jeff Hardy: 44:18

So I would say it's very simply first, evolution of unlimited growth and greed that began in Africa 2.5 million years ago is over, and it ended sometime during the 60s when it became clear that we had conquered nature and we could destroy the entire planet through mutually assured destruction. Now, that's just one. But when I talk with people about it they say, oh yeah, but that was when existentialism really became big. And you know, yeah, jean Paul Sartre and some of the, and then the beatnik movement and the hippie movement, and then, oh, someone said to me that, oh yeah, what about? Nixon went to China and we suddenly realized that China was really a country, not a place that they made toys. It's just so, yeah, there's a whole lot of things that you can stick in there, but I'm using the mutually assured destruction as the point. And that kind of came about in a what? Six to 10 year period, because we didn't really have that until Russia finally got it. You know, okay, we had the ability that was proven in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but you know, it was several years later. We had that three or four year window where the Soviet USSR, as it used to be called where they got it. So that's the period that it was. So that's the first human evolution. We are now in the suspended human evolution, which is the place that we're in. I don't even know what to describe it other than that, because we're not in the first one anymore and we haven't described the second human evolution anymore. We just, you know, because the second human evolution has yet to be designed, and that's where I say, on the front cover of to care for peace, the process is the solution. We have to establish a process that will move us towards the second human evolution. Now, to do that is to do exactly what you're doing right now. Where we were talking about it, we're discussing it, and this is a period that I call. When I walk into a hospital where they've called me and said, hey, would you help us plan this? I say, no, I'll be glad to join you in the pre-planning process. They say, oh, what's the difference? Well, pre-planning is when you just throw everything against the wall and throw out ideas and show us what hasn't worked, what's not working now, what's working now, let's, let's. Oh, I did that before, I would never do that again. I mean, that's, that's what pre-planning is. It's nobody is allowed to stake their necks on on anything. You got to bring these ideas forward and you got to say, well, no, wait a minute, that's kind of first human evolution stuff, isn't it? Well, yeah, but you know, somebody said to me we need to bring the religions forward and I said, absolutely. I mean, I was raised in three different religions when I was a kid and I learned from all three. They were wonderful. I wouldn't throw away those aren't babies, those are grown ideas with grown idea bathwater. I wouldn't throw any of that stuff away. So we have to bring that in during this suspended human evolution phase so that we can be part, be including it as part of the process of discussing, thinking about imagining what the second human evolution is going to look like, because I couldn't tell you what the heck it would be. And if I was a dictator of the world, that wouldn't help, because we don't need one guy at the top, we need a whole bunch of people down here, where I am and you are. We just need to be planning ourselves and it's going to be people like you who are going to be taking this ball and spreading the bounce. That's what we're going to need, because it's got to be bounced, it's got to be sent to other people and I don't need to own any of this stuff, I don't even. I mean, I wrote that book and I will tell you I didn't write it so that I could make money. I wrote it so that I could give it to my friends, so, and I'm giving it to my friends and it is on Amazon and people come by it. You know, I pay my 35 cents of whatever the you know, whatever Amazon doesn't set take. So, anyway, I just think that what you're doing is a real, real, bona fide example of the process, that of discussion. That's what you're doing. You're discussing, you're discussing things with people and you're sharing your ideas, along with the ideas that come in with every new podcast that you get. It's awesome, that's what we need to keep doing, and I'm just hoping that someone translates your podcast in the other languages. I mean, is somebody doing that?

Parker Condit: 49:50

Yeah, we do have a very small team, but that's one of those things I haven't even thought about, right, yeah, but yeah, it's such a good point how? Yeah, that's so far outside the scope of what I even considered to this point. But it's funny what you mentioned about writing a book. I was going to ask were you just tired of answering the same questions that your friends kept asking you? You wanted to have a concise resource you could just give them instead of having to explain it all over and over again. Because I've talked to so many people over in books. They're like I just got tired of emailing the same thing over and over again to my friends, so they're like I just put it into a book and now I can say here it is. Here's the answer.

Jeff Hardy: 50:25

Well, I'm a little bit opposite. I actually took about 40 years to write this book. In the very back of the book I've got the care for peace templates that I wrote with a friend of mine support or I helped him write it. I don't know what it is because it was such a long time ago, but the templates are discussion pieces of themselves. They're templates of the from to the first human evolution to the second human evolution, and I need to keep talking about these issues. So when someone brings an issue up, then it's an opportunity for me to think about it first and then discuss it and bring any one of the template issues up for debate and discussions. So no, I'm the opposite. I love it when someone asks me what you might think is the same question. My first podcast no, it wasn't a podcast, it was a television interview that I had. It blew. I did the whole interview and the guy calls me back and says it didn't work, it didn't take. We got to do it again. Well, guess what? The second time I did it, it was 10 times better. So I have no problem and I'm passionate with everybody I talk with. I think I've given you my heart this morning. I think that you know I've shared with you the way I share with anybody. It's right here, it's in my heart. You know I care for your peace. Yes, I do.

Parker Condit: 52:02

Yeah, no, it's very clear that this is something that's not just been a job for you throughout your life. This is clearly something that is just like deeply burning inside you that you're trying to address for the masses. I'm curious now because I don't know. There's so many questions like the. When I think about the sort of future, my immediate thought process goes to be like well, what are the financial incentives? What are financial incentives that would allow this to happen? That would push against it? And those are just I think those are all just concepts that are slightly like beyond capitalism, right, so like, and I don't know what that answer is and I think that's largely one of the messages we're taking away from this right Is that we don't necessarily know what the next kind of version is going to be. But I don't know. I just a lot of these problems. I think in the current capitalistic market I don't really see them happening just because there are these financial constraints. But we'll just kind of leave that for where it is. I am curious to think about the time right now because we're I feel like we're in this very narrow window from a climate standpoint, where it's getting obvious enough for most people to at least have their attention drawn to it. And but it's not too late where we can't do something. So we're in this very narrow window where, like, it's bad enough that people are caring so I live in Arizona, so it's very obvious here what are George's, the heat, everything. So it's bad enough where people care, and yet it's still not too late where we can actually do something. And that's one of it seems like one of the only things. It's like how else are we collectively, as a world, going to come together on something when it, for the most part, we can't really come together on anything? So do you think something as big as like climate change or global warming will be the thing to sort of unify people beyond borders?

Jeff Hardy: 53:54

That's a challenging question and I don't I can only take a jab and stab it and answer to that, because I know too much about the silo-ness of people and the inability to collaborate and or I should say our inability to collaborate. You know the idea that I've had in consolidation of departments and consolidating a nursing unit and consolidating countries into a global unit. That's very that's way out there. I mean, I know I am way out there and my idea and what you're asking is what do we do with this global, global, the climate change, and are we going to? Are we not moving fast enough? Is there now that everybody knows that that's a problem? Are we going to be able to do something about it, or I just I just don't know how to tackle that question. I would suspect you'd be able to answer that question better than me because of all the different people you've talked with.

Parker Condit: 55:05

I mean, the idea of climate is just recently kind of come up on my radar. I've been very focused on, like, trying to solve health care and like, obviously I'm not going to be able to solve health care but, like you know, solving problems within health care. That's kind of where I've lived and I feel like when people care about too many things, you can get paralyzed and take action on none of them. Like, I think a lot of people end up caring about a lot of issues, but when you care about too many, you can't really focus your efforts on on any one of them and make meaningful change. So for the longest time for me it's just been I've been focusing on health care. I'd be like that's where I'm going to put my effort, that's where I'm going to try to make change. But it's become abundantly clear that climate change is sort of it's going hand in hand with health care as well, where it's, like I mentioned earlier, the parallels are that if you can't afford it, the people, the poorest people, are going to be affected the most and they're not going to have any influence. They're not going to be able to influence any change. So it feels like I can't. I can't really divorce the two anymore, as of so conveniently divorced in my mind for so long.

Jeff Hardy: 56:12

Well, I appreciate that, because one of the things I said earlier is that we really can't solve health care Future or design it until we solve the future. We, you know that all of a sudden, the future is now very much as you say, it's a, it's part of it, and yeah, I mean it's. How do we do that? That's what we're all asking and what I say is I don't know the answer, but the process is the solution and you are very much a part of that process.

Parker Condit: 56:45

I appreciate it. I hope so. Hopefully these conversations help often time and it is nice hearing that from you that talking is such a productive part of it, because I'm very much action oriented. Where I'm like I don't know, I'm just saying words, is it actually making a difference? But like when action you can actually put into place, you're like oh, now I see myself making a difference. But when you don't even know what the solution is, I guess talking is the best you can do at that point.

Jeff Hardy: 57:10

Well, yeah, and I think that eventually, as you get more and more people as followers, as subscribers, you can call your local reps and your Senate reps and and say, hey, I want you on my show, and then ask them how they're going to get from the first human evolution to the second human evolution, and you can really get these guys thinking and, by the way, I don't own that and I don't want to own it. Okay, yeah, I came up with the idea is I don't care, it doesn't matter. We've got to bring into the meme things that we can all use without giving somebody credit. I do not know, I don't need credit of anything. No, I'm not at a point in my life where I got to have credit for everything. I'm just as happy to pass the word and and get it into the meme. So, and that's what you can do, I mean, you can take this ball, as I say, bounce it, bounce it to some of the senators, bounce it to the representatives, bounce it to the city manager. Find out what that city manager. You know who is the manager I saw their name about a week ago of Tucson, arizona. Somebody was in, I think the city manager or the mayor of Phoenix or something was on the news talking about something that was global warming. Of course I'm thinking, ah, you need to get that person, you need to have them do a podcast with you.

Parker Condit: 58:32

Yeah, I mean that's, that's certainly the plan to kind of build influence through this and be able to have, I mean just yeah, just having a podcast for anyone listening. By the way, having a podcast is like the best excuse to get really to have these conversations with people that you wouldn't normally be able to. Like it's, it's such a good tool. Thanks, other, yeah, yeah, because, like otherwise, like if I just emailed you, be like hey, can I just talk to you for an hour, maybe you would have said yes, but it very rarely do people say no when you have a podcast, which is the strange thing. It's like this weird life hack. I do want to go on to a few more questions, but I'll try to get you out of here relatively soon. Want to be respectful of your time. Is there something you've changed your mind about recently when you, I guess in regards to, like, the future of health care, maybe not, maybe not long term human second human evolution, but just anything where in the past you've, like I, held this idea for a while and now you've, sort of recently, changed your mind about it?

Jeff Hardy: 59:29

Hmm, I mean, can I just say no, I just really haven't changed my mind on anything, because my mind is constantly changing based on new information. And the thing about new information is that I think the older we get, the less we allow new information to come into our centurion and get equal access, so that we think we say, okay, well, that just changed my thoughts. At least it got me to the point where I'm thinking about it. Huh, but what I was thinking before was that the earth was flat. Now you're telling me that the earth is round. Forget it. I think the earth is flat. That's it. I won't talk about anything else. Well, no, I think nowadays people are used to new information coming in, and my professional career was based on the ability that I could actually get new information inside of people's heads and not had to just kick it out. So my number one response to you is that is first, no, but it's all changing. My mind is constantly changing and I won't let it take any new information unless it's like racist or just so, so ugly. You know some of this stuff that comes from our politicians and other. I just you know, come on, guys, let's, let's get back to the dignity level and let's put dignity in the second human evolution and we can't get the crap that comes at us from the first human evolution, where people are calling other people names and and they're belittling someone because of how they think and what they feel or what they look like. I mean, that's first human evolution stuff. So we've got to take dignity and put it as an absolute right, absolute must, in the second human evolution and the one thing that we can do is to respect what people say and at least be able to say wait a minute. That's first human evolution stuff. I can't really respond to that. I can't. That's, you know, that's really ugly, that really hurts my feelings and that really insults my intelligence. I don't know. I'm just making this up when I go along. So I mean, what do you think? What's that? Do you change your mind? Do you do things happen to you that you say wait a minute?

Parker Condit: 1:02:13

I mean I have very specific examples within healthcare. I suppose Probably like I've kind of shared. The one example that kind of comes to mind is actually from the podcast with Amy Moralore say she was the diabetes healthcare provider. But and that was around continuous glucose monitors I used to think they were a great tool for everyone to wear it because everyone should have more information about their metabolic health. I'm it's a more nuanced answer now where I think everyone should be wearing continuous glucose monitors if they have a healthcare provider who can interpret that data for them, because I think there's a lot of there's a lot of weird fears being brought up around glucose spikes and people not really understanding the natural progression of what happens after you consume any sort of carbohydrate or even high amount of protein. So you know, that's it's very, it's very specific to certain ideas, but not much on the global level. But I liked what you said around the idea that you always have like an evolving mind, and it kind of just reminded me of a story one of my close mentors he's one of the smartest people I know, very successful in business as well, and when I first started interacting with him he was always coming to me with ideas that seemed stupid because he would hear something and then he'd be like, what about this? And it was kind of confusing how somebody who was so intelligent could not sift through these seemingly bad ideas. But it wasn't that, it was just that he was. He was so open-minded to everything he would at least give it a shot. So he was never missing opportunities because he thought they were stupid or he was like too good for those ideas. So he was always open to ideas and then he would do open enough to do some research and then he could sort of filter the ridiculous from the sublime, if you will. So I think it's just one of those very telling lessons that the more people I talk to who happen to be very smart are, they tend to be very open to almost everything and they're not just going to immediately shut something out because it doesn't immediately match with their identity or their worldview.

Jeff Hardy: 1:04:26

Well, facts, of course, threaten all of us. Yeah.

Parker Condit: 1:04:31

Facts are.

Jeff Hardy: 1:04:32

You know when someone comes up and says well, that's not right, this is right. Then you go okay, I guess you're right. You know, and the politicians that really try to be nuts which is most of the politicians is that you tell them something is wrong and they just stand their ground.

Parker Condit: 1:04:50

Yeah, facts can be fickle beasts, so we're definitely going to link to your book in the show notes, but if you do you have any other resources where, if you want to learn more about this, do you have any other like trusted resources you could share? And it doesn't have to be right now. Feel free to email me afterwards, just because you know what we want to provide is much value to everyone who's listening. So if anything comes up after this, it'd be great if you'd be like oh, I forgot, this is a great website for people to look at. Anything like that would be helpful. But before I let you go, do you have any closing thoughts that you'd like to share with the audience?

Jeff Hardy: 1:05:24

Well, you know, I'd say, okay, our non-profits website is careforpeaceorg and, for fun, listen to the song. See, this is not brain stuff, this is heart stuff. I wrote a song when I was in Myanmar and we had a groundbreaking ceremony for our first clinic, but there was no music, there was no singing, no, nothing. So I promised that I was going to come back with a song and so I went home and I recorded the song and then I took that recording to two different singing groups acapella singing groups and both of them sang the song. But the one that's on the website is one that was professionally done and you can see 20 girls from our local high school, at Marin School of the Arts advanced treble choir, singing the care for peace song. And it just blew me out because I mean, you know, in my life, some of the stuff that I've done, the best stuff I've done, is not what I've done, it's what other people have done with what I've done, and that's an example. It is a beautiful song and I can't say that that's what it was that I gave them. So do go listen to the care for peace song. It's just and it's a beautiful song. I just think they absolutely mastered it, just mastered it. It was great. They even got an arranger to help them. I mean, it was like they liked it so much they got somebody to come in and help them do all the different acapella things, and so that's the only thing I'd say Just go to the care for peaceorg website and find the song it's up there in the top bar or somewhere and have fun. Learn how to sing it. Get your friends Great. I don't know.

Parker Condit: 1:07:22

Well, we will. We'll definitely link to that, but I actually I do have one more question before I let you go, I do. I just want to ask you more about care for peace. Do you have any other clinics that are going to be opened up, or do you need fundraising for that, or just anything you want to share about that organization?

Jeff Hardy: 1:07:38

No, we're dead in the water in Myanmar. I have $250 left of our oh. We started with about $200,000 from wonderful donors, who, and our board of directors and everything, and so we. But no, that Myanmar is dead in the water and will I resurrect it Absolutely If we have a democracy over again, because we have. We have three memorandum memoranda of understanding one with the union government, with Ansan Suu Kyi's top ministry of health, with a doctor's association foundation that we teamed up with so that they could continue the advisor role to the people in our village, and the state Rakhine State Hela'i Association, which is a Rakhine state. Rakhine state is like the California of Myanmar borders, the, the bearing straight, no, no, no. The Anyway, the whatever water ocean Can't remember what it is, but it yeah. So we have that association as as part of this. So it's like they're all still there, everybody's still there. So if, all of a sudden, there's a democracy, we're going to build 250 more of them and, believe me, I'll let you know so that you can help us get some more money, so that they can, so we can build more of these things.

Parker Condit: 1:09:14

Yeah, no, it's definitely stay in touch, like I was asking, because it's like I want to kind of be a resource for you as well, as you've been, to sharing your knowledge and your information with me. So I want to be a resource for you. So, yeah, if that becomes available again, please let me know and we'll update everything. Maybe we'll do a follow up episode around that time as well. Sounds great, great, but yeah, if there's nothing else, I mean this has been a great conversation for me, thank, you so much. Yeah, it's been really helpful and it's just it's kind of nice knowing that you're not just screaming out into the void and that these conversations actually do help. So again, I just want to thank you so much.

Jeff Hardy: 1:09:46

We'll find out, but thank you for what you're doing. Keep bouncing the ball.

Parker Condit: 1:09:52

Yeah, I guess that's all. That's all we can really do, right? Yeah, all right. Well, jeff, thank you so much. Thank you, hey, everyone. That's all for today's show. I want to thank you so much for stopping by and watching, especially if you've made it all the way to this point. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are going to be released, feel free to subscribe and make sure you hit the bell button as well. To learn more about today's guests, feel free to look in the description. You can also visit the podcast website, which is exploringhealthpodcastcom. That website will also be linked in the description. As always, like shares, comments are a huge help to me and to this channel and to the show. So any of that you can do I would really appreciate. And again, thank you so much for watching. I'll see you next time.